# Gay marriage opponents, listen up: I've got a secret to tell you **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 6, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496 "2008-11-06T19:08:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/841 "2008-12-03T06:25:35Z")
> [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](#): > > How anyone can look at the current institution of marriage and not think that it’s completely unconstitutional (simply by virtue of the fact that it exists within secular laws) is beyond me. This confuses me, probably because I know almost nothing about religion. Marriage was originally only a church thing and had nothing to do with the government? ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/842 "2008-12-03T06:41:50Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > What gay men need to stop this SSM crap is to get the right pussy and they’ll forgo others guys cocks and asses. Now why didn’t I think of this before, that makes it so simple! Thank you for showing me the light. Any women want to make me straight so I can just forget all this SSM crap? ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/843 "2008-12-03T14:44:35Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I think everyone understands what married means. You can tell a four-year-old that Bob & Gary down the street are a married couple and the kid isn’t going to experience any cognitive disconnect. When people grow up they find someone they love and want to live with. People don’t need to run to the dictionary to figure out what married means. I think you’ve missed the point of the post (with a definition for **H&R** ’s actually needing to ask, “what does ‘marriage itself’ mean?”) that you’ve responded to and my subsequent explanation of that post. Re-reading my posts in this thread would show you and I are actually in agreement. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/844 "2008-12-03T15:11:05Z")
Just so the SSM marriage opponents will know they have lost, in this thread and the larger battle, like the abolition, women’s suffrage, integration and miscegenation opponents before them, I give you this quote (stolen from _The New Yorker_ mail page), which inspired phrases in speeches by Lincoln, King and Obama and of which surely the more learned of the debaters here are aware: > [@](#): > > Look at the facts of the world. You see a continual and progressive triumph of the right. I do not pretend to understand the moral universe; the arc is a long one, my eye reaches but little ways; I cannot calculate the curve and complete the figure by the experience of sight; I can divine it by conscience. And from what I see I am sure it bends towards justice. Things refuse to be mismanaged long. > > – _Reverend Theodore Parker_ ---
**Author:** ![BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/845 "2008-12-03T15:46:42Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > This confuses me, probably because I know almost nothing about religion. Marriage was originally only a church thing and had nothing to do with the government? I’m not clear on how tied to the state marriage was originally. However, well before the “separation of church and state” was written into our constitution marriages were a part of religious tradition. I also don’t know whether back in the early American days you could get married just by filling out some paperwork at the town office. I’m guessing not. Currently, they are in theory completely separate from the church because you don’t need to participate in any religious ceremony to get married. But since many people do have a religious ceremony, and because both the religious and secular ceremony is called “marriage,” religion thinks it can dictate rules about it. It’s like if the state suddenly gave people benefits for eating a cookie every week, and they called the eating of the cookie “communion.” You wouldn’t need to go visit a church to get these cookies, but many people would go to churches for them. In theory it would be totally separate from the Catholic ceremony of communion, but you bet your ass the Catholics would be trying to dictate who could and couldn’t eat the cookies, even though they’d be completely separate from the ones that are in fact made out of Jesus bits. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/846 "2008-12-03T18:23:52Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > But for many people in this thread, that’s not the end of the inquiry. They’re saying that the people who make up society can’t decide the definition of the word because they’re too bigoted, homophobic and ignorant to choose for themselves. They feel that some governmental body has to mandate what marriage is to embody some principle of equality. But much of life is unfair and there’s lots of inequality to go around. My question is when should the principle of equality override the choice of the people in deciding what an institution stands for? Okay, first of all, you suck at analogies. Other than that, I agree with you. The people have voted to exclude homosexuals from marriage. It’s a stupid, bigoted, hateful, and deeply ignorant position. But it’s an entirely _legal_ position. Which is why you will not find any posts from me arguing that gay marriage ought to be instituted from the bench. It should be instituted from the voting booth. There are a couple of challenges being mounted against Prop. 8 in California right now. I do not expect them to pass, and I think that they should not pass. The principle of self-governance includes the right to govern badly. The people of California have decided that they want to live under a bad law. The remedy for this is to convince them to vote for a better law, not to look for an outside agency to slap them on the hand like wayward children. I will note that I do not disagree with the California Supreme Court’s initial decision legalizing gay marriage in California. The law banning gay marriage was in clear violation of a higher law mandating equal treatment. That was an entirely just ruling, even though it went against the popular opinion of the people of the state. The remedy sought by those bastards behind Prop. 8 was legally (although, obviously, not morally) correct: they altered the law at the same level as the mandate for equal rights. If we want to fix this state, we’ve got to change the law back at the same level. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/847 "2008-12-03T18:24:46Z")
> [@5-4-Fighting](#): > > I think you’ve missed the point of the post (with a definition for **H&R** ’s actually needing to ask, “what does ‘marriage itself’ mean?”) that you’ve responded to and my subsequent explanation of that post. > > Re-reading my posts in this thread would show you and I are actually in agreement. Sorry, I wasn’t arguing with you, just riffing off your post. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/848 "2008-12-03T18:52:45Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Tolerance of intolerance is not a virtue and never has been. Thus, I happily will not tolerate yours. > [@curlcoat](#): > > What in my post indicated intolerance? When you said that some people shouldn’t be allowed to vote. > [@](#): > > You think because I suppost SSM I must also have voted for Obama? Yes, sorry if I’m mistaken, but I’d guess most of those who vote in favour of SSM wvoted for Obama. > [@Antinor01](#): > > Now why didn’t I think of this before, that makes it so simple! Thank you for showing me the light. Any women want to make me straight so I can just forget all this SSM crap? Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/849 "2008-12-03T20:10:27Z")
> [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](#): > > I’m not clear on how tied to the state marriage was originally. However, well before the “separation of church and state” was written into our constitution marriages were a part of religious tradition. I also don’t know whether back in the early American days you could get married just by filling out some paperwork at the town office. I’m guessing not. > > Currently, they are in theory completely separate from the church because you don’t need to participate in any religious ceremony to get married. But since many people do have a religious ceremony, and because both the religious and secular ceremony is called “marriage,” religion thinks it can dictate rules about it. > > It’s like if the state suddenly gave people benefits for eating a cookie every week, and they called the eating of the cookie “communion.” You wouldn’t need to go visit a church to get these cookies, but many people would go to churches for them. In theory it would be totally separate from the Catholic ceremony of communion, but you bet your ass the Catholics would be trying to dictate who could and couldn’t eat the cookies, even though they’d be completely separate from the ones that are in fact made out of Jesus bits. At least as far as the Christian church was concerned, marriage was originally a completely secular issue. [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage#European_marriages) says > [@](#): > > From the early Christian era (30 to 325 CE), marriage was thought of as primarily a private matter, with no religious or other ceremony being required. Until 1545, Christian marriages in Europe were by mutual consent, declaration of intention to marry and upon the subsequent physical union of the parties. The couple would promise verbally to each other that they would be married to each other; the presence of a priest or witnesses was not required. So how about this: Let’s return “marriage” to its traditional civil/secular role, and call all religious unions “Holy Matrimony” (or as applicable for the religion of your choice). ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/850 "2008-12-03T20:12:15Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Thus, I happily will not tolerate yours. You’re not going to tolerate his intolerance of intolerance? Isn’t that likea triple negative or something? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/851 "2008-12-03T20:14:05Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > You’re not going to tolerate his intolerance of intolerance? Isn’t that likea triple negative or something? We’re harshing his hate, dude… ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/852 "2008-12-03T21:23:11Z")
> [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](#): > > I’m not clear on how tied to the state marriage was originally. [A little marriage history.](http://marriage.about.com/cs/generalhistory/a/marriagehistory.htm) > [@](#): > > There appeared to be many marriages taking place without witness or ceremony in the 1500’s. The Council of Trent was so disturbed by this, that they decreed in 1563 that marriages should be celebrated in the presence of a priest and at least two witnesses. Marriage took on a new role of saving men and women from being sinful, and of procreation. Love wasn’t a necessary ingredient for marriage during this era. > > Years later, the Puritans viewed marriage as a very blessed relationship that gave marital partners an opportunity to not only love, but also to forgive. > > Many people hold the view that regardless of how people enter into matrimony, marriage is a bond between two people that involves responsibility and legalities, as well as commitment and challenge. That concept of marriage hasn’t changed through the ages. It sounds like anyone who wanted to consider themselves married could go ahead and consider themselves married. I’m not sure when the government started requiring a license, but I’d bet it was around the time divorce and settling of accounts started to become more common. That, and preventing whites from marrying minorities. 1929 in the year by which every state had marriage license laws. The concept of the government giving you permission to be married really hasn’t been around that long. Some argue it’s immoral for the government to presume so much authority over marriage, but I’m sure all those divorce lawyers have well financed lobbyists. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/853 "2008-12-04T02:18:01Z")
> [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](#): > > I’m not clear on how tied to the state marriage was originally. However, well before the “separation of church and state” was written into our constitution marriages were a part of religious tradition. I also don’t know whether back in the early American days you could get married just by filling out some paperwork at the town office. I’m guessing not. So even in early America there was no real freedom of, or from, religion? Way to waste a long trip across the Atlantic… ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/854 "2008-12-04T02:24:24Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > When you said that some people shouldn’t be allowed to vote. That was in reference to the fact that far too many people aren’t smart enough to understand the issues, or can’t be bothered to read up on them before they vote. I guess you could make a case for my being intolerant of those folks, but it’s hardly the same as denying a large segment of the public their civil rights just because you don’t like them. > [@](#): > > Yes, sorry if I’m mistaken, but I’d guess most of those who vote in favour of SSM wvoted for Obama. No idea since I have no idea what Obama’s stand on SSM is. I personally wouldn’t have voted for him because he appears to be in bed with the HSUS. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/855 "2008-12-04T02:27:10Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > No idea since I have no idea what Obama’s stand on SSM is. I personally wouldn’t have voted for him because he appears to be in bed with the HSUS. The Humane Society of the United States? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/856 "2008-12-04T02:29:00Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > The Humane Society of the United States? 😕 Yes. I have only heard this from several places and haven’t looked into myself, so I don’t know this for a fact. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/857 "2008-12-04T02:35:00Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Yes. I have only heard this from several places and haven’t looked into myself, so I don’t know this for a fact. May I ask (do I want to?) why “being in bed” with the Humane Society is a bad thing? Or am I being whooshed? ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/858 "2008-12-04T02:40:26Z")
They (Humane Society) seem to have liked how he filled out one of their [legistlative surveys](http://hslf.typepad.com/political_animal/2007/12/the-president-3.html), and they went on to [endorse him](https://community.hsus.org/humane/notice-description.tcl?newsletter_id=27497157). ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/859 "2008-12-04T02:44:35Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > May I ask (do I want to?) why “being in bed” with the Humane Society is a bad thing? Or am I being whooshed? There is a big difference between the HSUS and your local humane society. In a nutshell, the HSUS is an arm of PETA. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/860 "2008-12-04T03:06:36Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > There is a big difference between the HSUS and your local humane society. In a nutshell, the HSUS is an arm of PETA. Still not a big enough mark against him to make me vote for Palin [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496.md?page=44)