# Gay marriage opponents, listen up: I've got a secret to tell you **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 6, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496 "2008-11-06T19:08:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/121 "2008-11-10T05:53:22Z")
To the OP: I think everybody knows that, aside from it being an easy way to start a circle-jerk it isn’t very effective. To the whole “If you don’t like A, don’t have A”…really, I stopped using that when I was 8 or 9…and it’s getting old and isn’t very clever It’s not hate…at least no even remotely of the level I’ve seen on the thread. if most of you simply bury your heads and say it’s the stupid guys who voted against SSM, many of them voted with you on other issues, do you reject their votes? I’m sure it has no effect in the ammount of sex (of the pam pam pam varitey or otherwise), but I’m pretty sure no-one expected that. Marriage is not a right given by the state any more than human rights are. They exist regardless of the law or actual application. SSM is playing basketball with poker chips…play if you want, but it ain’t basketball even if you call it like that. Just before some smart-ass asks: Gay marriage does me no damage at all, but if personal, actual damage it the moral/legal/ethical yardstick, then those Darfur guys can keep on dying, they do me no harm, and those stoning can keep on going, they do me no harm. If push came to shove I’d actually prefer to abolish civil marriage and replace them with simple contracts. Marriage would become a personal hobby sponsored by whoever wants and the state would not have a say. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/122 "2008-11-10T06:09:53Z")
> [@Ají de Gallina](#): > > If push came to shove I’d actually prefer to abolish civil marriage and replace them with simple contracts. Marriage would become a personal hobby sponsored by whoever wants and the state would not have a say. So, let me get this straight: You’d be OK with **no one** having a relationship called “marriage” in a state-recognized way? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/123 "2008-11-10T06:11:08Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > So, let me get this straight: You’d be OK with **no one** having a relationship called “marriage” in a state-recognized way? Wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/124 "2008-11-10T06:40:18Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > So, let me get this straight: You’d be OK with **no one** having a relationship called “marriage” in a state-recognized way? Again, if push comes to shove; not my prefered state but better than state-santioning of people’s lifestyle and calling them marriage. Marriage is, to me at least, a guy and a gal; like no two forward passes in the NFL. If the very definition of marriage will get “broken”, then yes. Have a lwawyer draw a contract with custody, insurance, visitation, whatever…two (or more) people doing what they want with their lives. If they believe God/god/spirit tells them to be together through some special ceremony…they can get “united” to the Marianas Trench. For me, marriage is a natural institution, if a society tries to destroy or alter a natural institution then, let’s cut our loses. Apartheid had to be so ridiculous in its bigotry because it went against the natural equality of humans. ---
**Author:** ![Robin\_Goodfellow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Robin\_Goodfellow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robin_Goodfellow)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/125 "2008-11-10T06:56:27Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > If they believe God/god/spirit tells them to be together through some special ceremony…they can get “united” to the Marianas Trench. Well lookie there, the old man-on-dog argument to devalue same-sex marriage? I thought we were done with that in 3rd grade, hon. > [@](#): > > For me, marriage is a natural institution Oh, do go all-naturally fuck yourself. Nothing is “natural” that gets enshrined in corporate-belabored laws. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/126 "2008-11-10T06:59:20Z")
I wouldn’t have a problem with changing how marriage is done in our society (if we change it to basically a contract or whatever). The problem I have with the way things are done now is the way people are denied the benefits of a marriage-type contract based on their sexual orientation. Also, if we change how marriage is done, we change it for everyone, not just the people who aren’t doing things the way the majority think it should be done. But what does it matter what I think? My country legalized same-sex marriage years ago. 🙂 (By the way, it hasn’t caused Canadian society to collapse or anything. Imagine that.) ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/127 "2008-11-10T07:11:01Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > But what does it matter what I think? My country legalized same-sex marriage years ago. 🙂 (By the way, it hasn’t caused Canadian society to collapse or anything. Imagine that.) Orly? Then why do you have, dunt dunt duh! _Socialized Medicine!_ :eek: Clearly, legalized buttsex causes one to contract socialized medicine. And we’ve got enough problems in the US, what with our socialized schools, interstates, police forces, health inspectors, and military. Illegal buttsex is the _only_ thing keeping us from become a fullblown socialist nation! Why, the socialism we _do_ have is so entrenched, and desperately trying to spread such that we can hardly beat it off the ramparts as it tries to ooze its way into our society! ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/128 "2008-11-10T10:08:46Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > Speaking of the marriage = man + woman thing, is marriage defined anywhere in the bible? I’d really like to know; I promise I’m not being a smart ass. Not really. But Jesus does say that it is solely an earthly institution, and does not exist in His father’s kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/129 "2008-11-10T10:45:10Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Why do people who oppose SSM vote to deny them the word “marriage” to describe those rights? More importantly, why do they vote to deny us the full bill of marriage rights in the first place? It’s a moot point when we don’t have those rights, as we don’t. > [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Wouldn’t you? I would. I’m looking for common ground, rather than stooping to my debate partner’s level by jumping in and starting a fight. > [@Ají de Gallina](#): > > Again, if push comes to shove; not my prefered state but better than state-santioning of people’s lifestyle and calling them marriage. Sexual orientation is not a “lifestyle”, nor a choice, but a natural condition imbued upon us (all of us, one way or another) before birth, as evidenced by the many right-wing, vehemently anti-gay politicians with wives and children and otherwise exemplary traditional lifestyles who also pick up men in airport bathrooms. > [@Ají de Gallina](#): > > If the very definition of marriage will get “broken”, then yes. Have a lwawyer draw a contract with custody, insurance, visitation, whatever…two (or more) people doing what they want with their lives. If they believe God/god/spirit tells them to be together through some special ceremony…they can get “united” to the Marianas Trench. What is it, exactly, that makes same-sex marriage so different from opposite-sex marriage that it would “break” the very definition of the thing? > [@Ají de Gallina](#): > > For me, marriage is a natural institution, if a society tries to destroy or alter a natural institution then, let’s cut our loses. I think you mean “losses”, and how is opposite-sex commitment the only “natural” order? You imply that same-sex relations/relationships are “unnatural”, yet there exist hundreds of species which are naturally bisexual (like the bonobo) and many others with a small percentage of members who exhibit exclusively homosexual behavior (like humans, dogs, and, rather famously, penguins). > [@Ají de Gallina](#): > > Apartheid had to be so ridiculous in its bigotry because it went against the natural equality of humans. Really? It seems to me that inequality is the natural state of human society, and that we must collectively act in unnatural ways to make society better and more inclusive. There’s quite a bit more support of this theory (ie, just about every society in the history of the world–some, like the US and India, more than others) than I can see for the example you just pulled out of your ass. Or do you have anything to back all of this rambling up with? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/130 "2008-11-10T13:14:15Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Orly? Then why do you have, dunt dunt duh! _Socialized Medicine!_ :eek: Clearly, legalized buttsex causes one to contract socialized medicine. And we’ve got enough problems in the US, what with our socialized schools, interstates, police forces, health inspectors, and military. Illegal buttsex is the _only_ thing keeping us from become a fullblown socialist nation! Why, the socialism we _do_ have is so entrenched, and desperately trying to spread such that we can hardly beat it off the ramparts as it tries to ooze its way into our society! Your arguments…they are irrefutable! We have been found out! ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/131 "2008-11-10T13:24:58Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > I think you mean “losses”, and how is opposite-sex commitment the only “natural” order? You imply that same-sex relations/relationships are “unnatural”, yet there exist hundreds of species which are naturally bisexual (like the bonobo) and many others with a small percentage of members who exhibit exclusively homosexual behavior (like humans, dogs, and, rather famously, penguins). Don’t you love the “it’s unnatural!” argument against homosexuality, which most certainly occurs in nature across the board, but touting hetero marriage as the “natural order” when it’s clearly a man-made construct and an artificial state at best? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/132 "2008-11-10T13:51:41Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Don’t you love the “it’s unnatural!” argument against homosexuality, which most certainly occurs in nature across the board, but touting hetero marriage as the “natural order” when it’s clearly a man-made construct and an artificial state at best? Eh, every part of nature sets up a system to sort out “who’s your daddy?”, humanity’s just happens to be marriage (although this is changing as social mores change). I’m more annoyed that right after I say bigots aren’t any kind of majority in the US that one pops up and tells us we’re all going straight to hell for condoning the sexing of the butt. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/133 "2008-11-10T15:14:13Z")
[quote=“Aji\_de\_Gallina, post:121, topic:471496”] To the whole “If you don’t like A, don’t have A”…really, I stopped using that when I was 8 or 9…and it’s getting old and isn’t very clever [\QUOTE] You haven’t actually presented and arguement against it though, have you? I don’t like to drink or smoke or have sex with other men, so I don’t, but I don’t try and stop anybody else. I don’t like drunk drivers or child abusers but I _do_ try to stop those. The difference is impact on others, and no one has shown me that being gay, acting on that nature, or marrying has a negative impact on others remotely equal to the harm to society of discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/134 "2008-11-10T15:48:46Z")
**Robin** : Did you read the part where I said I didn’t care? The man-dog argument is used by those who do. And, if there’s a law about it ain’t natural? That’s what you said? \*\*Featherlou \*\*and **Tuckerfan** : I never mentioned any society collapsing. **Hostile** : Are you saying that all gay people are born gay? **Rubystreak** : Please show me proof of across-the-board same-sex itercourse in nature. I’m sure there are a couple of examples, but even mopst of those are non-penetrative. **Outliern** : So you are in favour of forcing you morality on other because of your “negative impact” “iffiness” factor? I said “natural institution” which means that it’s part of humanity as a whole even if it is invented. Homosexuality is natural, SSM is not a natural institution. Also, I meant equality in our condition and dignity as humans. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/135 "2008-11-10T15:51:36Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > **Robin** : Did you read the part where I said I didn’t care? The man-dog argument is used by those who do. > And, if there’s a law about it ain’t natural? That’s what you said? > > \*\*Featherlou \*\*and **Tuckerfan** : I never mentioned any society collapsing. > > **Hostile** : Are you saying that all gay people are born gay? > > **Rubystreak** : Please show me proof of across-the-board same-sex itercourse in nature. I’m sure there are a couple of examples, but even mopst of those are non-penetrative. > > **Outliern** : So you are in favour of forcing you morality on other because of your “negative impact” “iffiness” factor? > > I said “natural institution” which means that it’s part of humanity as a whole even if it is invented. Homosexuality is natural, SSM is not a natural institution. > Also, I meant equality in our condition and dignity as humans. Ok everyone. Time to bust out the male dolphin blow-hole vids. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/136 "2008-11-10T16:12:57Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > **Robin** : > **Outliern** : So you are in favour of forcing you morality on other because of your “negative impact” “iffiness” factor? I do not understand your question, please clarify. I’m saying that “if you don’t like A, don’t do A but don’t interfer with others who do” is a valid default response unless A can be shown to significantly harm those who haven’t chosen to participate. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/137 "2008-11-10T16:24:10Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > Ok everyone. Time to bust out the male dolphin blow-hole vids. …if I had a nickel… ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/138 "2008-11-10T16:46:02Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > That’s bullshit plain and simple. I’ve written in other threads about how amazingly accepting most high school kids are nowadays about gay classmates. Sure there’s still a few bigots, but I graduated HS in 1999 (the same as **Cisco** in fact, so we know what we’re talking about) and out classmates was unheard of. Actually, no one was out. Not even to their closest friends. In less than ten years, that attitude has disappeared. > > And when those kids are of voting age (which all of them will be in four years), the SSM marriage bans will fall like dominos. I finished HS in 1986. Didn’t know of anybody in the class who was gay, ehr, excuse me, GLBTetc. Personally I didn’t even bother with the question, but then, I also don’t give a shit about what my coworkers do out of hours so long as they’re awake at work. Some of the folks in my HS class are now married to same-gender spouses. If you’d asked me a year ago whether the US was more likely to get a female white President or a male President of “any color other than shiny white” sooner, I would have put my money on the white chick - and lost. Do you guys think I’ll live to see a married, openly GLBTetc American President? That’s more or less the next 60 years 🙂 **Ají** , did you ever decide who to feel attracted to? I know I didn’t. Back in 7th grade I had social problems because the official heatthrobs of the moment left me ice-cube cold. I figured that gay folks didn’t choose their tastes any more than I chose mine (I’m straight, but I don’t usually like blondes, nor do I like any guy who happens to be a blonde, or any guy who happens to sing pop - this labeled me as “strange” according to She Who Doesn’t Fart & Co). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/139 "2008-11-10T18:37:46Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > **Rubystreak** : Please show me proof of across-the-board same-sex itercourse in nature. I’m sure there are a couple of examples, but even mopst of those are non-penetrative. Well, I’m not **Rubystreak** but I’ll answer this one anyway. Amongst many species of birds NO sex is “penetrative”, not even that which results in reproduction. My cockatiels, as an example, have “cock” in their species name, and they are “cocks” because they are male birds, but they do not, themselves, have “cocks” (i.e. a penis) because they aren’t made that way. Nonetheless, the species manages to reproduce (like bunnies, actually, which is why we have two males because we didn’t want a flock and can’t bear to make teeny-egg omelets) so I’d have to say that “non-penetrative” sex can still be real sex, in any sense of the word. (My birds, alas for them, also appear to be entirely heterosexual but there are documented cases of “tah gay sex” in their species, among others) ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496/140 "2008-11-10T18:46:29Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#): > > Gay rights became an issue…what, thirty years ago? Although it didn’t work on as wide a scale as protesters and organizers today, the Mattachine Society got started in the 1950. > **[Mattachine Society](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mattachine_Society)** > > The Mattachine Society (/ˈmætəʃiːn/), founded in 1950, was an early national gay rights organization in the United States, preceded by several covert and open organizations, such as Chicago's Society for Human Rights. Communist and labor activist Harry Hay formed the group with a collection of male friends in Los Angeles to protect and improve the rights of gay men. Branches formed in other cities, and by 1961 the Society had splintered into regional groups. > At the beginning of gay rights pro... > [@](#): > > Goals: The Mattachine Society’s goal was to liberate the oppressed homosexual community and provide a variety of services to the gay community, including referral services for legal and other professionals, and counseling. **The society also lobbied for the repeal of sodomy laws and other laws that are discriminatory toward gay people.** It published The Mattachine Review. The Daughters of Bilitis similarly has been around since 1955. > **[Daughters of Bilitis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughters_of_Bilitis)** > > The Daughters of Bilitis (/bɪˈliːtɪs/), also called the DOB or the Daughters, was the first lesbian civil and political rights organization in the United States. The organization, formed in San Francisco in 1955, was initially conceived as a secret social club, an alternative to lesbian bars, which were subject to raids and police harassment. > As the DOB gained members, its focus shifted to providing support to women who were afraid to come out and to becoming politically active. The DOB educa... Although this may seem to be proving your point about “not in our lieftimes” because it’s taking longer than we thought, I’d say we’ve been fighting and will continue finding. It’s just that now the tides of time are with us more than ever. Look at the laws that have been put on the books. Even if many of them have been overturned/thwarted, we’re further along than ever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-opponents-listen-up-ive-got-a-secret-to-tell-you/471496.md?page=8)