# Gay Marriage: What's in it for the Straight Folks? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2004, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958 "2004-10-24T23:39:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/21 "2004-10-25T10:38:54Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > Allow gay marriage, and you’ll end up with many unhappy gay divorced couples. As opposed to the even larger number of gay couples who are unhappy _now_ instead of in your theoretical future because they can’t marry… ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/22 "2004-10-25T13:03:22Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > As opposed to the even larger number of gay couples who are unhappy _now_ instead of in your theoretical future because they can’t marry… There’s a five-letter acronym that would be the appropriate response here, **jayjay** , the same one as is used for the Democratic National Federation of Trusts and Trustees. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/23 "2004-10-25T14:15:53Z")
Jonathan Rauch makes a good argument in his book [Gay Marriage : Why It Is Good for Gays, Good for Straights, and Good for America](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805076336/qid=1098713846/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-4107468-8094520?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). One of the arugments he makes is that Civil Unions will actually weaken Marriage because it will let hetero couples take Civil Unions as a sort of “Marriage Light”. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/24 "2004-10-25T14:41:44Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Actually, there’s something very important in it for “the straight folks.” And Martin Heidegger defined it in words that have been quoted on this board quite often enough already. Martin Niemoller. Martin Heidegger was content enough with the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/25 "2004-10-25T15:08:05Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Martin Niemoller. Martin Heidegger was content enough with the Nazis. One of them Martins! :o Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/26 "2004-10-25T15:08:48Z")
A more stable society. Society has decided that promotion of Marriage in general is in society’s best interest, as stable family relationships are conducive to stability of employment, home ownership, tax-paying and all other behaviors that society deems Good. Given that gay people won’t go away just because heteros are uncomfortable about them, it makes sense to encourage their entering into the same kind of society-stabilizing relationships that heteros enter into. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/27 "2004-10-25T15:25:04Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > So gay marriage will be one more step toward equal legal and social treatment of gays, which will lead to fewer divorces, and divorces–I think almost everyone can agree–are bad for both the married adults involved and their children. hehe… though I agree with less “fake” marriages… your wrong about “will lead to fewer divorces”… after all there will be gay divorces ! I think the OP meant in more practical and political terms to increase acceptance of gay marriage. Speaking of equality and freedom its easy for us to agree on the issue, especially dopers… but how do you make it politically acceptable or at least not an insta-death for a political career to support gay marriage ? How do you convince regular citizens that its in their interest ? ( Personally I’d rather not see men walking with their hands together… but I sure don’t have a good reason to forbid them either. So I’d rather not be a hypocrite. If I’m allowed to do the same with girls… I say legalize Gay Marriage. I agree with most of the points brought in this thread too… especially health and financial concerns.) ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/28 "2004-10-25T15:52:56Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > As opposed to the even larger number of gay couples who are unhappy _now_ instead of in your theoretical future because they can’t marry… Statistics to back up the above claim, please? I’m not saying that you are necessarily wrong, merely that I don’t see the evidence supporting this. There’s lots of gay couples today, many out of the closet. I’m dubious that allowing gay marriages will change happiness much. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/29 "2004-10-25T15:57:16Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > There’s a five-letter acronym that would be the appropriate response here, **jayjay** , the same one as is used for the Democratic National Federation of Trusts and Trustees. I assure you, my post wasn’t intended as a troll. I’m just doubtful that allowing gay marriage will do much good. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/30 "2004-10-25T15:57:41Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] Don’t call people trolls, Poly. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/31 "2004-10-25T16:13:42Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > Statistics to back up the above claim, please? I’m not saying that you are necessarily wrong, merely that I don’t see the evidence supporting this. There’s lots of gay couples today, many out of the closet. I’m dubious that allowing gay marriages will change happiness much. Do you understand that there is a substantive difference between “being an out gay couple” and “being a legally married gay couple”? I mean, there are plenty of out straight couples, too. Yet I see straight couples getting married every day. Why, if being a couple is just as good as being married, would this happen? ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/32 "2004-10-25T16:27:14Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Do you understand that there is a substantive difference between “being an out gay couple” and “being a legally married gay couple”? > > I mean, there are plenty of out straight couples, too. Yet I see straight couples getting married every day. Why, if being a couple is just as good as being married, would this happen? Custom and tradition? My point is that I am dubious that allowing gay marriage will on average make gays happier. Note here I am similarly skeptical that the existence of the institution of heterosexual marriage does much of anything today for the happiness of straight people. Particularly as the laws today grant divorce on demand. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/33 "2004-10-25T16:53:50Z")
What’s in it for me for the fire department to put out the fire in Wally’s house down the street? ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/34 "2004-10-25T17:16:25Z")
What I still don’t understand is the difference you seem to make between “marriage” and what you call “legal union”. I you mean by “marriage” the (Christian) religious rite, how come that this is seen as being able to have legal consequences in a secular society? If you mean by “marriage” the registration of a union between two persons which gives the couple signing this registration all the rights and obligations as described in the US laws , what is the difference then between this "marriage and a “legal union”? Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/35 "2004-10-25T17:36:15Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > I assure you, my post wasn’t intended as a troll. I’m just doubtful that allowing gay marriage will do much good. Sure there is. Legalise it/endorse it (whatever you want to call it) and you have just removed it from the political arena. If that isn’t a benefit, I don’t know what is. Imagine a run-up to the presidency without the added stress of this issue… 😉 On the other hand, unless you can come up with a reason NOT to endorse same sex marriages, then you should by default allow them. What’s in it for the hetero-couple is irrelevant. I don’t think any carrot you dangle in from of the majority of people will ever change their desire to not see gay marriages come to fruition. It will have to succeed on its own merits. I have hope but not much confidence that it will do so. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/36 "2004-10-25T17:42:21Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > On the other hand, unless you can come up with a reason NOT to endorse same sex marriages, then you should by default allow them. Note I have already voted NO on the Michigan ballot initiative to constitutionally ban gay marriages and civil unions. Thus a NO vote is the pro-gay position. I am just dubious allowing these will do any good for gays. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/37 "2004-10-25T18:33:13Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > Sure there is. Legalise it/endorse it (whatever you want to call it) and you have just removed it from the political arena. Haaahahahaha. Right, and legalizing abortion removed it from the political arena. > [@Aldebaran](#): > > what is the difference then between this "marriage and a “legal union”? It all depends upon who you ask. Some folks feel that it’s good enough if all rights and responsibilities given to couples who marry are given to couples in a civil union. Others feel that calling SSM “civil unions” rather than “marriage” denigrates the commitment that the partners make with each other, essentially treating homosexuals as second-class citizens. Wound it be fair if we said that marriage between people of different races were merely civil unions? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/38 "2004-10-25T18:50:56Z")
The same arguments work on this issue that have historically worked on other facets of civil rights. What was “in it” for men when women were allowed to vote? What was “in it” for whites when Jim Crow laws were struck down? Only that the society we all live in was made better off, and that we have all benefited. Contrary to the saddening and rather-insulting attitude in the OP, not every argument is settled by “what’s in it” for somebody. There is genuine altruism in the world, a helluva lot of it. A lot of people do a lot of things for others without expectation of a tangible and direct personal return. It’s not hard for even the most ignorantly cynical to think of countless examples that invalidate the premise. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/39 "2004-10-25T18:58:01Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > Some folks feel that it’s good enough if all rights and responsibilities given to couples who marry are given to couples in a civil union. Well… That is my question. In my view every “marriage” in a secular society is by the nature of that nation’s secularity limited to representing a “civil union” which then is popularly called “marriage” for the sake of clarity (or whatever). This “marriage” is not “marriage” in a religious sense, but is purely a signed agreement following the nation’s laws and that gives the couple well defined rights and obligations under the nation’s law. Not under any “religious” law, but under the nation’s secular law system. Since the US claims to be a secular nation, then what on earth is the difference between what you call “marriage” and what you call “civil union” ? Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958/40 "2004-10-25T19:21:03Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > Since the US claims to be a secular nation, then what on earth is the difference between what you call “marriage” and what you call “civil union” ? Salaam. A Actually a good question… I don’t know in the US… but in Brazil its a civil union when you live together but your not married. Its a legal “status” and quite similar to a legal marriage in many ways. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-whats-in-it-for-the-straight-folks/270958.md?page=3)