# Gay marriage worse than Holocaust, or, matt\_mcl's head finally explodes **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 22, 2006, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388 "2006-11-22T04:09:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/1 "2006-11-22T04:09:09Z")
Oh, honey, you SO did NOT just go there: [Warning – link to skeevy-ass religious right site](http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/nov/06112107.html) > [@](#): > > Gay ‘Marriage’ in Israel: Worse than Holocaust - Will Cause Terrorism Warns Rabbi Levin > > …[Rabbi Yehuda Levin] noted that while vocal on the land-rights of Israel, several Christian groups have been slow to protect Israel from the homosexual agenda. “It is far worse to allow the homosexualization of the Holy Land than to give back land to the Arabs,” Levin told [LifeSiteNews.com](http://LifeSiteNews.com). … > > While he stressed that this would never excuse any type of genocide or holocaust, he added: “Therefore on a certain level, even anti-Semitism that leads to the destruction of the Jewish people, is not the ultimate evil. The ultimate would be to take the Jew, or anybody else, and attempt to destroy them spiritually. That would be the ultimate holocaust.” … > > “If people of faith are serious enough then there’s a hope to stem the tide of immorality,” Rabbi Levin told [LifeSiteNews.com](http://LifeSiteNews.com). “But if we turn the other cheek to this evil, then we will all suffer worldwide. Because as the holy land goes, so by extension, will other areas of the world go. It will incur God’s wrath.” > > “Fight with every fibre of your being the spiritual holocaust,” he said, “which is robbing the values of the Jewish people in Israel and of the Christian people worldwide.” > > He concluded: “The most effective way of showing an opposition to the historic holocaust is to stop the holocaust of the spirit which is being perpetrated by the militant homosexual agenda.” WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK. OH MY GOD. HEAD GO SPLODY INARTICULATE RAGE NYARGHHHHHH! What the hell is wrong with you, you fucking **cock**?! Seriously, what is your major malfunction?! Worse than the Holocaust?! That’s enough, we should be able to assign squadrons of drag queens to seriously fly places and grab people and FUCKING SLAP THEM. I don’t think you could possibly have expressed this any more offensively if you had individually crafted every single word so as to include the maximum of offensiveness, wrapped each word in a little ball of shit, and **threw** it at gay people, like your fucking asshole cohorts did at the pride parade the other year. Oh, my GOD don’t even start me. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/2 "2006-11-22T04:20:55Z")
File this Rabbi under “People With Issues.” ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/3 "2006-11-22T04:25:38Z")
[QUOTE=matt\_mcl] I don’t think you could possibly have expressed this any more offensively if you had individually crafted every single word so as to include the maximum of offensiveness [/QUOTE] It’s so extreme it reads almost like a parody. Er, there’s no hope it’s a parody, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/4 "2006-11-22T04:29:37Z")
Hang on, I’ll get Papa Zeus to toss down one of his lightning bolts. Seriously, wt frakkin’ f. That man deserves some pretty shitty karma, right there. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/5 "2006-11-22T04:31:06Z")
Someone should point out to this shithead that gays were also targeted during the Holocaust. Perhaps that would give him pause. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/6 "2006-11-22T04:32:21Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Someone should point out to this shithead that gays were also targeted during the Holocaust. Perhaps that would give him pause. [/QUOTE] The difference was that we deserved it, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/7 "2006-11-22T04:34:35Z")
Wasn’t there a horrible accident at a nightclub a while back, and someone like him said it was their own damn fault for being dirty sinners? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/8 "2006-11-22T04:34:44Z")
Impossible to take this ass serious and yet, I know that there are zealots out there that will do just that. There are probably way to many idiots that will nod their heads in agreement with this jerk. [QUOTE=Guinastasia] Someone should point out to this shithead that gays were also targeted during the Holocaust. Perhaps that would give him pause. [/QUOTE] I doubt it, it just might make him say something nice about the Nazis. If he listen to himself, he might realize he has the heart of a Nazi. Jim ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/9 "2006-11-22T04:36:25Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Someone should point out to this shithead that gays were also targeted during the Holocaust. Perhaps that would give him pause. [/QUOTE] I doubt it. Historically, very few oppressed peoples who obtain power, as the Jews have in Israel, have identified with similarly oppressed but different peoples. The ultra-conservative Jews still hate gays. Conservative African-Americans still hate gays. Conservative African-Africans still hate gays. American soldiers who liberated the concentration camps freed the Jews but left the gays imprisoned, because, after all, they were criminals (guilty of sodomy). While it would be really nice to see some empathy stemming from a shared history of oppression, it’s been shown to be rare enough that I certainly don’t expect it. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/10 "2006-11-22T04:38:59Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] … American soldiers who liberated the concentration camps freed the Jews but left the gays imprisoned, because, after all, they were criminals (guilty of sodomy). … [/QUOTE] Cite please, I never heard this before. Did it happen once or as a policy? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/11 "2006-11-22T04:39:45Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] American soldiers who liberated the concentration camps freed the Jews but left the gays imprisoned, because, after all, they were criminals (guilty of sodomy). [/QUOTE] Seriously? Kept them in the camps? I have not heard that. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/12 "2006-11-22T04:49:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Cite please, I never heard this before. Did it happen once or as a policy? Yup. Under Paragraph 175 of German law, homosexuality was a crime. Homosexuals were returned to custody (I don’t know if they were retained at the camps per se–my impression was that they had to serve their jail time). I read this in The Man with the Pink Triangle, I think. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/13 "2006-11-22T04:50:15Z")
I was slightly off. They didn’t keep them in the camps, but they did keep them imprisoned at other facilities, sometimes for what would be the full term of a conviction under Paragraph 175 _without_ counting the years they spent in the camps. > [@](#): > > Upon the collapse of the Third Reich, Germany’s glbtq community did not enjoy an immediate resurgence of freedom. Nor was any compensation offered for the sufferings they experienced during the dark days of the Nazi era. Indeed, many who were convicted under Paragraph 175 remained incarcerated since the Allies argued that these men were truly criminals and therefore legitimately held. To make matters even worse, someone sentenced for eight years of imprisonment under Paragraph 175, who had served three years in jail and then five years in a concentration camp, was still liable to serve five more years in jail since, the Allies contended, the concentration camps were not prisons. From [here](http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/germany,3.html). ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/14 "2006-11-22T04:52:08Z")
I found this [here](http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/camps.html). > [@](#): > > 1943 - Natzweiler-Struthof was expanded by the Nazis with the installation of a gas chamber and crematory for the mass killing of Jews, Gypsies, and captured Resistance fighters from Holland, Belgium, and France. Under Paragraph 175 of the German legal code, male homosexuality was punished by imprisonment, but not female lesbianism. After 1943, male homosexuals were forced to wear a pink trangle and were sent to the death camps. The Americans did not repeal Paragraph 175 and **sent homosexual inmates liberated from the camps to other prisons.** Not quite what \*\*jayjay \*\* implied. From [here](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/homo.html): > [@](#): > > Death rates for homosexuals were much higher, perhaps three to four times higher, than for other non-Jewish categories of prisoners. While their overall numbers are small, their fate in the camps more nearly approximates that of Jews than any of the other categories, except, perhaps, Gypsies. And, homosexuals did not survive for very long. Of those who were exterminated, most were exterminated within the first few months of the camp experience. > > Conclusion > One last issue deserves brief attention. The Nuremberg War Crimes Trials, held in 1945, did not address the plight of homosexuals with the same seriousness accorded other victims of the Holocaust. Burleigh and Wipperman (1991:183) suggest that this may reflect the fact that after the war homosexuality was still a crime under German law and there still existed widespread homophobia. In fact, the Reich laws against homosexuality (i.e., the Nazi interpretations oBf Paragraph 175 of the Reich Criminal Code) were not repealed in Germany `xuntil 1969. As a consequence, homosexual survivors of the camp experience were still reticent to press their case before the courts since they could still be prosecuted under existing laws. So they were probably rescued from concentration camps and sent to jail according to German law. Jim ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/15 "2006-11-22T04:56:52Z")
From the [official site of the Frankfurter Engel, a memorial to gay and lesbian Holocaust victims](http://www.frankfurter-engel.de/geschichte/verfolgung.html): > [@](#): > > 1. Mai 1945: Kriegsende. Befreiung der Konzentrationslager. Anders als andere Nazi-Gesetze heben die Alliierten die Verschärfung des § 175 nicht auf. Befreite Homosexuelle werden mitunter zur Verbüßung ihrer Reststrafe in den normalen Vollzug überstellt. Der § 175 bleibt in der Bundesrepublik in der drastisch verschärften Nazi-Fassung bis 1969 in Kraft > > May 8, 1945: End of war. Liberation of the concentration camps. Unlike with other Nazi laws, the Allies do not waive the aggravation [?] of Section 175 [the sodomy law under which gay concentration camp prisoners were imprisoned]. Some homosexuals in liberated camps are transferred to the regular prison system to complete the remainder of their sentence. Section 175, greatly increased in severity by the Nazis, remains in force in the Federal Republic until 1969. Although homosexuals, like other criminals, were not targeted for systematic extermination as the Jews and Roma were, they were routinely singled out for medical experiments and the most deadly work assignments. The pink triangle was larger than other triangles, so that they could be more easily singled out, including by other prisoners. And of course they were frequently simply murdered: in _I, Pierre Seel, Deported Homosexual_, the French deportee Pierre Seel recounts being forced to watch as the Nazis, to amuse a visiting officer, brought his eighteen-year-old lover out nude with a bucket over his head; he was then set upon by dogs and torn to shreds. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/16 "2006-11-22T07:53:42Z")
He’s a nut-job (almost by definition in my book, but I’m an Organized-Religion-hating militant atheist, so what do I know? :dubious: ). He most certainly cannot represent the Israeli public at large. Only himself and his other Ultra-right-wing Ultra-orthodox nut-job friends (of which we have far too many, but that’s a rant for another day.) He’s also **hurting** right now, due to the Israeli court’s decision to compel the government to register Gay couples legally married in Canada as “married” for all bureaucratic purposes (see my lead-balloon thread from yesterday [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=397188)) – effectively (although the court decision explicitly avoids taking a stand on the issue of SSM itself) opening the door to wide-spread official acceptance of gay couples married elsewhere as being Legally Married for official purposes here (even if they can’t _get_ married here. Yet.) So, naturally, he comes out all firing from both barrels… I’ll stop short of saying you should cut him some slack though… Serves him right, doesn’t it? 😃 I love it when the Bad Guys lose a round so soundly they have a meltdown 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/17 "2006-11-22T08:29:26Z")
Funny. I’ve been to my aunts’ house and it didn’t seem much like Auschwitz. Seemed more like a happy loving home where my (biological) aunt converted just to be buried next to her Jewish wife. And who helped her raise her son when his father decided he was more interested in his new (shiksa by the way) wife and child. And who have spent the last 17 years loving each other. Oh the horror! I can’t imagine a more warped world view. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/18 "2006-11-22T09:12:15Z")
What **Noone Special** said (although I come from a slightly different perspective, organized religion wise). I’d like to note, though, that this Rabbi Levin is American, not Israeli. Which makes sense - Israelis are rarely that quick to invoke the Holocaust. We have an almost innate respect for Godwin’s Law.\* Incidentally, you know what infuriates me the most about his rant? It’s that he’s a Jew asking Christians to protect Israel from other Jews. Fucking _traitor_. \*Although we do make Holocaust jokes. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/19 "2006-11-22T10:01:00Z")
Cheer up, Matt old son. If all your enemies were as obviously nutjobs as this guy, you’d be laughin’. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388/20 "2006-11-22T17:09:40Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] File this Rabbi under “People With Issues.” [/QUOTE] Clearly, he can’t come to terms with his love of dick. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-worse-than-holocaust-or-matt_mcls-head-finally-explodes/381388.md?page=2)