# Gay Marriages/Parenting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 1999, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604 "1999-10-15T18:01:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 1999, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/41 "1999-10-20T23:25:00Z")
Let me make something clear. When I said that I would advocate LDS marriage for all people, I didn’t mean that I wanted to legislate it or force it upon everyone. Marriage for time and eternity would be the ideal, but I realize it’s not wise to try to force one’s religious views on the public. Yes, I’ve heard of the first amendment and am a supporter of it. Sorry if I didn’t make that clear. Phil wrote: > [@](#): > > You are not the first doomsayer, Bill, nor will you be the last, but you have all been equally incorrect and, I am certain, will continue to be. For rather obvious reasons. I most certainly wish and hope that I am incorrect, Phil. Believe me, no one would be happier to be wrong about any issue than I would about this one. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 1999, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/42 "1999-10-20T23:46:00Z")
Durnovarianus: That’s not how my dictionary reads. You’re welcome to think of “marriage” any way you want to, but AFAICS the word is not defined as a strictly religious one in the English language. Geez. I delurk on the thread just to nitpick. Sorry. But I do think it’s important not to lose sight of the difference between secular marriage and religious. Just because the gummint says two people are married does **not** mean that churches and churchmembers have to agree. -andros- ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 1999, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/43 "1999-10-21T14:20:00Z")
I’d be the first to defend religious freedom. That would include the prophethood of Gordon Hinckley (in which I do not believe) and the theological definition any church may put on the sacrament/ordinance/ whatchamacallit of marriage. However, regardless of what any given church may define it, “marriage” is also a civil event in that it changes one’s secular status. No church would suggest that an atheist man and an athiest woman going before a judge and reciting marital vows are undergoing a religious ceremony. But if both encountered God and began attending church, they would certainly be considered a married couple. I dislike all attempts to _define_ marriage theologically. Part of the reason is that you can create _reductio ad absurdam_ scenarios in which they fall to pieces. Most obvious candidate here is the “marriage is for procreation” one: a man married to a woman who has had to have a hysterectomy is therefore required to divorce her? Give me a break! On the theological bent, some persons are not eligible for marriage because God has given them the gift of celibacy. I.e., their sexuality, not repressed, is nonetheless not to be expressed because the particular role in which they are to function is incompatible with a natural sex life; he therefore equips them to healthily abstain from interpersonal sexual relations. It is not a rare but neither an overly common gift. I think I would concur with you, Gaudere, in your wish for Bill’s future happiness. And I would note that such a relationship would not necessarily have to be sexual in nature if Bill still feels at that point that homosexual relations are _ipso facto_ sinful. But to find someone with whom he can share love would be a wonderful thing for him. And blessed by any God worth the name, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 1999, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/44 "1999-10-21T14:47:00Z")
Wait, back up–celibacy is a _gift_? Oh, wow, that casts my high school years in a whole new light . . . * * * “I love God! He’s so deliciously evil!” - Stewie Griffin, _Family Guy_ ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 1999, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/45 "1999-10-21T15:04:00Z")
If celibacy is a gift, does that mean I can return it? ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 1999, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/46 "1999-10-21T15:19:00Z")
Yeah, Gaudere, you can. But only for store credit. Waste Flick Lives! ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 1999, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/47 "1999-10-21T15:28:00Z")
LOL…I should have expected that! ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 1999, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/48 "1999-10-21T15:30:00Z")
Gaudere…only if it’s still in the original package! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 1999, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/49 "1999-10-21T15:31:00Z")
I assure you I still have the box that it came in. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 1999, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/50 "1999-10-21T16:15:00Z")
That being the case, you can get credit for anything of equal value in the store. Waste Flick Lives! ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 1999, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/51 "1999-10-21T16:16:00Z")
Credit non applicable in Tennessee. Waste Flick Lives! ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 1999, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/52 "1999-10-21T16:37:00Z")
You mean celibacy is non-negotiable in Tennessee? So **that’s** why their population is growing so fast! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 1999, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/53 "1999-10-22T05:32:00Z")
Not only is it non-negotiable, but to save time, many of the denizens are now being born without any virginity at all. Note to any who may be reading this: I have nothing against anyone who is from TN, nor their forefathers who may be from TN. This started out as a smart-assed remark, nothing more. Waste Flick Lives! ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 1999, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/54 "1999-10-21T19:36:00Z")
Granted this thread is now circling over Jose Marti International Airport, is it possible to get it back on track? 🙂 I know of three Biblical passages in which homosexual behavior is dealt with. 1. In Leviticus, it is condemned as an “abomination.” Theologian Daniel Helminiak reviews the background on this one, however, to demonstrate that it is among Canaanite practices forbidden to the Children of Israel. (There is some strong evidence for temple prostitutes of both sexes as a part of Baal/Astarte worship.) At least the surrounding commandments appear to relate to other activities known to be related to Baal worship. 1. In Romans, God punishes “trendy” thrill-seeking behavior by instilling homosexual desire in both sexes. (Rom. 1:17ff) Members of the Roman church included those who had put their hush puppies on, realizing they were not cut out for glitter rock-and-roll. (Rom. 2:1) It was not something to be punished but was itself a punishment. (This incidentally appears to be the only Biblical reference to lesbianism.) 2. The other reference of any significance is in I Samuel, where two men fall in love. Interestingly, they are not portrayed as having a sexual relationship, but the love relationship, far from being condemned, is held up as an example. This is of course David and Jonathan. I find it ironic that two happily married men, Phil and myself, are defending gay marriage to a person who has indicated he himself is gay but finds homosexuality sinful. As a final point, “God’s judgment” being something to be feared is a strictly Christian viewpoint. (This may say something about Christians! :)) The Jewish view, as shown in both Old and New Testaments, was that they longed for God to come to judge and condemn the wrongs committed against them. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 1999, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/55 "1999-10-21T20:20:00Z")
Poly: > [@](#): > > As a final point, “God’s judgment” being something to be feared is a strictly Christian viewpoint. (This may say something about Christians! ) The Jewish view, as shown in both Old and New Testaments, was that they longed for God to come to judge and condemn the wrongs committed against them. I dunno about this, Poly, I remember going through this with cmkeller some time back, and his take on it was that homosexuality is a bad thing. I didn’t care for his analogies, but I think that was the point he was trying to get across. Oh, and. . .just what in hell was the topic again? Waste Flick Lives! ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 1999, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/56 "1999-10-21T20:42:00Z")
Oops…that will teach me to mix comments in one post without making clear what I’m referring to. Yeah, I also vaguely remember Chaim’s post. The reference to “judgment” though was not connected directly to the other paragraphs in my post but was focused on Snarkberry’s comment that > [@](#): > > I also believe that gay marriage will, if approved by us voters, will bring down the judgments of God upon our heads. No direct connection except that they both derived from the question of gayness and religion. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 1999, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/57 "1999-10-21T20:48:00Z")
Hm, can we do this scientifically? Which countries have legal gay marriage? Is there any evidence of The Judgement of God upon their heads? * * * “Happiness is nonetheless true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting.” - Bertrand Russell ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 1999, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/58 "1999-10-21T21:28:00Z")
Well, seeing as I went and did some research to answer my own question, I though I’d share: > [@](#): > > Technically speaking, lesbians and gays cannot marry anywhere in the world-at least not by using the same civil institutions and legal mechanisms as heterosexual couples. Thus, option 5) above has not yet been followed anywhere. However, in Denmark, Iceland (including Greenland), the Netherlands, Norway, and Sweden, same-sex couples can register their partnerships-a form of legal recognition that approximates civil marriage in those countries. > > 1995: Sweden > The law legalizing same sex unions came into effect Jan.1. > > 1995: Spain > In 1995 Rex Wockner reported that roughly 30 Spanish cities currently register “civil” same sex unions, including Barcelona, Cordoba, Granada, Ibiza, Toledo and Valencia (which has a regional law) and that gay and lesbian political leaders were agitating for the national government to register partnership for gay and straight couples this spring. > > 1995: Hungary > In an odd legal decision the Hungarian Constitutional Court legalized “common-law” gay marriage on March 8 1995.[It may be noted that common-law and formally married couples have the same rights. A couple that lives together permanently and has sex is considered married under common law.] The oddity was that the court also ruled that formal, civil marriages are for heterosexual couples only. > > 1995: Britain > Even Britain has seen an official lesbian marriage, although under rather ununusal circumstances:-from The Plaid website [a Scotish transsexual site] Item from BBC Radio news at 1800 bst [date not given] Today a lesbian couple made history by getting married. Tracy Scott was born a man but had a sex change operation a year ago. Although physically female, under British law she is still a man and was therefore able to marry her partner. > > The European Parliament in February 1994 passed a resolution calling for study and, ultimately, adoption of a European Community recommendation to end “the barring of lesbians and homosexual couples from marriage or from an equivalent legal framework.”" It appears as if the closest one can get to a gay marriage truly equivalent to a heterosexual marriage is Hungary’s common-law marriage. And in the US: > [@](#): > > In 1993 the Supreme Court of Hawaii ruled that the state had to prove it had a compelling interest in barring couples of the same sex from receiving a marriage license; absent such proof, the ban would violate protections against sex discrimination co ntained in the state constitution. In 1996 a state circuit court found that no such compelling state interests exist. This decision has been appealed back to the state Supreme Court. > In Alaska and Hawaii voters decided in the November, 3 1998 elections to alter their state constitutions to define marriage as a union of a man and a woman (Alaska) and to allow the legislature to restrict marriage to opposite-sex couples (Hawaii). > > Article IV of the United States Constitution states that “Full faith and cred it shall be given in each State to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other State.” If same-sex marriage is legalized in Hawaii, other states will certainly be sued to force them to recognize marriages performed there. Several s tates and the Federal Government have already passed laws to forestall this possibility. In 1996 Congress passed and the President signed the so-called “Defense of Marriage Act” (DOMA), declaring that states need not recognize same-sex marriages register ed in other states, and that the Federal Government recognizes only opposite-sex marriages. The constitutionality of such laws remains in dispute. Sources: [http://www.bway.net/~halsall/lgbh/lgbh-marriage.html](http://www.bway.net/~halsall/lgbh/lgbh-marriage.html) [http://www.steff.suite.dk/partner.htm](http://www.steff.suite.dk/partner.htm) [http://www.iglhrc.org/news/faqs/marriage\_981103.html](http://www.iglhrc.org/news/faqs/marriage_981103.html) * * * “Happiness is nonetheless true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting.” - Bertrand Russell ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 1999, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/59 "1999-10-21T21:32:00Z")
Poly: I, personally, think that Snark is full of hooey when he makes statements such as the one in question. That said, I think that anyone is full of hooey when they make statements to that affect. I apologize for reading more into your first post than was there. I don’t think that there should be an issue inre gay marriage. It should be allowed. If it will only make the cut as a civil ceremony, then so be it. Something is better than nothing. Am I back on topic yet? Waste Flick Lives! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 1999, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604/60 "1999-10-22T07:42:00Z")
The basis for my remark about God’s judgments coming down on our heads if we as a people approve gay marriage comes from [The Family: A Proclamation to the World](http://www.lds.org/library/pro_of_the_fam/pro_of_the_fam.html). To quote part of it: > [@](#): > > We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. > > We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society. I think it’s safe for me to say that the LDS church views same-sex marriage as a threat to the institution of the family. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriages-parenting/17604.md?page=4)