# Gay people and Barbra Streisand, Judy Garland, etc., musicals.. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 3, 2000, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-people-and-barbra-streisand-judy-garland-etc-musicals/18462 "2000-05-03T16:39:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2000, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-people-and-barbra-streisand-judy-garland-etc-musicals/18462/1 "2000-05-03T16:39:58Z")
So what’s up with all that? What’s the basis for the association? Is it just an ongoing straight joke about gays with no basis in fact, or does being gay actually have a statistically significant correlation with liking Streisand et al.? If there is a correlation, then why? If any of you are gay and actually understand the origin of this real or alleged phenomenon, can you please explain it? ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2000, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-people-and-barbra-streisand-judy-garland-etc-musicals/18462/2 "2000-05-03T16:49:46Z")
Can’t speak for the others, but I believe that Garland had no problem with gay blokes, and this was appreciated. My view on musicals is that some gay people have crap taste too. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2000, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-people-and-barbra-streisand-judy-garland-etc-musicals/18462/3 "2000-05-03T16:55:13Z")
I have no idea, but here’s something that happened to me: I used to sit two cubes down from a gay guy. One day I was whistling something (from “A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum,” which I had recently seen), and this guy said out loud, “OK, who around here that isn’t gay is whistling Broadway show tunes?” ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2000, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-people-and-barbra-streisand-judy-garland-etc-musicals/18462/4 "2000-05-03T18:17:21Z")
Well, at least one gay friend of mine HATES Judy Garland. “She can’t sing, she can’t act—and what the hell kind of role model was SHE?” he says. He’s thinking of forming a group called Gays Against Garland (G.A.G.). He and his boyfriend went to a costume exhibit, and he walked up to Judy’s “Valley of the Dolls” metallic pantsuit and yelled, “hey—the pockets are still fulla pills!” The other museumgoers were NOT amused. ---
**Author:** ![SwimmingRiddles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SwimmingRiddles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SwimmingRiddles)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2000, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-people-and-barbra-streisand-judy-garland-etc-musicals/18462/5 "2000-05-03T18:19:57Z")
According to the Theater Folklore that I’ve heard, Garland and Minnelli’s marriage was of the lavendar persuation. No idea if it’s true, but that’s the rumor. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2000, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-people-and-barbra-streisand-judy-garland-etc-musicals/18462/6 "2000-05-03T18:35:31Z")
There’ve been rumors for years about Judy and Vincente. Each bio of Judy that appears gets more and more concrete about it. The latest, “Get Happy” by Gerald Clarke, apparently states Judy’s lesbian affairs with certainty (although I haven’t read it yet; it’s on my bookshelf awaiting me. My parents gave it to me for my birthday last month because I am a big Judy queen). As to the OP, this gets into the whole “diva” thing again. Gay men oftentimes in the past felt that they could not (or should not) model themselves on heterosexual men. That left women as role models and heroes, and so cults of personality would spring up around some of these women who projected powerful images. That their personal lives were often tragic only made them more open for identification by these men. The arts has always attracted more than its share of gay men because of the flamboyant and (relatively) open theatrical atmosphere. Consequently, a coded “gay sensibility” found its way into a lot of Broadway shows. Combine that with the diva mystique and that pretty well explains it. I can’t explain Barbra Streisand. I don’t think anyone can explain Barbra Streisand. I can’t stand Barbra Streisand. She should have been arrested years ago for murdering songs. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2000, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-people-and-barbra-streisand-judy-garland-etc-musicals/18462/7 "2000-05-03T18:41:36Z")
> [@](#): > > He and his boyfriend went to a costume exhibit, and he walked up to Judy’s “Valley of the Dolls” metallic pantsuit and yelled, “hey—the pockets are still fulla pills!” Heh heh heh. This reminds me of a bit from gay comedian Bob Smith’s book, Openly Bob. He’s talking about different kinds of big queens and contends that str8 people who worship Star Trek and Elvis are just as much big queens as gay people who worship Broadway and Judy. He envisioned this exchange between an Elvis queen and a Judy queen: “Elvis gained more weight.” “Judy lost more weight.” “Elvis was a big drinker.” “Judy could drink Elvis under the table.” “Elvis was addicted to painkillers.” “No pill could kill Judy’s pain!” ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2000, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-people-and-barbra-streisand-judy-garland-etc-musicals/18462/8 "2000-05-04T03:02:54Z")
Elvis wasn’t a big drinker; in fact, he didn’t drink much at all. He got all he needed from pills. Ironically, he especially avoided beer, because he didn’t want a beer gut. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2000, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-people-and-barbra-streisand-judy-garland-etc-musicals/18462/9 "2000-05-04T16:07:56Z")
This was covered in my **Gay Guy** thread. Three words: Pathos, pathos, pathos. 😃 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2000, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-people-and-barbra-streisand-judy-garland-etc-musicals/18462/10 "2000-05-04T16:27:46Z")
I wonder why Joan Crawford and Bette Davis became big gay icons, but not Barbara Stanwyck? They all had— • Over-the-top glam looks • Talented but stylized acting skills • Great “bad girl” roles • Were strong women with colorful private lives • Long careers (1920s–70s) Why is poor “Missy” Stanwyck left out in the cold? ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2000, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-people-and-barbra-streisand-judy-garland-etc-musicals/18462/11 "2000-05-05T14:34:31Z")
Barbara Stanwyk has her followers, but she was never as big as Taylor or Garland or Crawford or Davis, IIRC. I think every queer drama queen has their own personalized diva depending on their own lives (personally, give me Bette Midler - loud, laughing and happy, which suits me just fine). Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2000, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-people-and-barbra-streisand-judy-garland-etc-musicals/18462/12 "2000-05-05T15:24:50Z")
Most stereotypes, fair or unfair, have at least a grain of truth to them. All I’ll add is an anecdote my brother who lives in San Francisco told about himself. He recently got his second new car, the big Saturn, fully loaded. He said the first thing he did was cruise Castro St. with Judy going full blast on the CD player. ## I’ll ask him about Barbara Stanwyk. Hey, I like the _Wizard of Oz_ but I’m not a “Friend of Dorothy.” ---
**Author:** ![Doobieous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Doobieous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doobieous)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2000, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-people-and-barbra-streisand-judy-garland-etc-musicals/18462/13 "2000-05-06T13:13:45Z")
You know, I just can’t get into Judy, or Barbara, or Liza. Not one song of theirs moves me, not at all. Even the screen legends, while they all had good roles gets to me. However…I do like female singers, but they tend to be more modern artists (R&B). Anyways sorry, I just had to put my own opinion in :). ---
**Author:** ![sorrel554](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/91b2a8/32.png) [@sorrel554](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sorrel554)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2000, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-people-and-barbra-streisand-judy-garland-etc-musicals/18462/14 "2000-05-06T13:36:36Z")
I have just finished reading the Gerald Clarke biography mentioned above, and this is what the author has to say about the subject: > [@](#): > > Seeking explanations for her homosexual following, both magazines [_Time_ and _Esquire_] indulged themselves in psychological mumbo-jumbo. But the true explanation was perhaps too obvious to catch the attention of such flatulent minds. The homosexuals of that closeted era identified with Judy because they, too, were the objects of demeaning jokes and casual contempt–for proof, all they had to do was read _Time_ and _Esquire_–and they derived comfort and inspiration from her ability to survive similar assaults. As many times as she fell down, Judy always managed to pull herself up–and they hoped that they would do the same. Many heterosexuals, the great majority of her audience, made the same identification, of course. Judy’s appeal breached all borders.