# Gay Pride? Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196 "2003-06-02T19:32:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/21 "2003-06-02T21:03:39Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m hoping that the “dick” remark was aimed at athelas and not myself. I’m just asking an honest question. I’m certainly not trying to be offensive to anyone. It was definitely directed at athelas. Sorry for the confusion. I’ve never been ashamed of being white, and nobody’s ever tried. Perhaps it’s because white people (issues of power aside) are an obscenely large group. Almost anybody from Europe, minus Spain and (I think) Portugal, can be considered white, but the cultural differences are vast. As a past SD column discussed, the idea that there’s a single white/Caucasian race is bunk, so I don’t know what you’d have white pride in to begin with. The thing with White Pride is that it’s associated with people who say “Our race is the best.” Most other white people don’t feel the need to do that. They have celebrations reflecting their individual heritages if they so choose. There’s no ‘white culture.’ Gay pride isn’t a “we’re better than anyone else” thing, it’s a “we’re as good as anyone else, despite the opinion of some people” thing. I realize I’m speaking in generalities, but there’s a different message. You could have White Pride Day if you wanted, but good look celebrating all the things attributed to white people in a day. And we stole most of the good stuff from black people anyway. 😉 😉 😉 😉 ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/22 "2003-06-02T21:06:13Z")
Maybe I can make my point a little clearer, maybe not… Let’s take “Black Pride Day” for example. If I am black, and a contributer to my community, a good provider for my family, a hard worker, etc., then I have every right to be proud of my accomplishments. If I am a person that robs the stores in my community though, abandons my kids, and lives off of welfare simply because I don’t want to work, then there is really very little for me to be proud of. Likewise, I could be gay but still not be a very good person, hurting people every chance I get. Should I still be proud that I am gay? I guess I would like the “pride” part to be reserved for the people that actually do something with their life and make a contribution, rather than being an all-encompassing thing just because you happen to be something that you had no control over. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/23 "2003-06-02T21:09:49Z")
I understand what you’re saying. You asked for the rationale in your first post, and I’m trying to explain a bit because I think I understand it. I’m not saying you should feel it if you don’t. That kind of stuff (pride in sexuality, race, or whatever characteristic) isn’t for everybody. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/24 "2003-06-02T21:10:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Conflict of Interest \* > \*\*I don’t need a day/month to feel pride in who I am. I noticed many gays in this thread say that pride comes with what you do with your life. Not with the “lables” people give you. > > This is all I’ve been trying to say. > > Major King, I don’t want or need one. I can feel pride in who and what I am without having one just like musicguy does. > > Mockingbird, just how is everyday straight pride day? Your logic escapes me. \*\* Are there laws made against who you are to separate you from the rest of society as you are also accused of wanting special rights? Do you risk being physically assaulted for leaving a straight bar on the basis of your sexual preference? Have you only had “freedom” from police harassment of the bars and restaurants that cater to people of your persuasion for about 25 years? Why do the celebrations of others threaten you? Everyday _is_ straight pride day. Gay people being affectionate on television or in movies is an extreme rarity, while in movies, straight people try and give each other tonsillectomies with their tongues. They have such scorching hot, sweaty monkey love it is starting to look like an extreme hygeine film with pubic hair topiary gardens. Straight people can hold hands and walk down the street and the general reaction is the same “awwwww” reserved for babies and kittens. Gay people holdin hands and walking down the street often get the same “eeeeeew” reserved for public disembowlings and splatter movies. The list of inequities goes on and on. So, Happy Straight Pride Day! Enjoy the other 363 while we have _ONE_ day. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/25 "2003-06-02T21:16:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mockingbird \* > \*\*How sad that gay pride **day** is such an issue for some people. \*\* Hmmm… that seems more than a bit defensive. I don’t think it’s an “issue” for anyone in this thread yet. **musicguy** , as a gay man, asked what I think is a valid question. He’s gotten some good responses, and one truly snotty one (thanks for playing, **athelas**!). I think I liked **Freyr** ’s post the most, but I feel that it’s a little off. As a heterosexual, monogamously-married man who does many of the things traditionally relegated to women in American society (housework, cooking, child care), while my wife does much of the “men’s” work (home improvement, etc.), I feel that I (we) also challenge some preconceived notions of what it means to be a man, and as we experiment in many different things sexually, we also challenge many traditional ideas of sexual expression and freedom. And yet, I am not necessarily “proud” of these things. I am proud of some aspects of who I am: a father, a husband, a good worker, talented in some respects. I suppose these elements contribute to my pride, but I am more proud of my accomplishments, rather than my beliefs or my feelings. I do not feel the need to celebrate these things, other than on a personal, usually private level. I suppose I am like **musicguy** in this way (that’s a guess, feel free to correct me if I am wrong). It should be said, however, that I also do not begrudge the need of the gay community to celebrate gay pride. I’m glaad that they can, and it doesn’t bother me at all. It’s not an “issue” for me in the least, even if I don’t understand the reasons for it. I don’t have to understand every aspect of someone else’s way of life to respect it. For me, it comes down to this: While I am interested to hear good answers to **musicguy** ’s question of “why?”, it is also fair to say that another good question is “why _not?_” If some want to celebrate publicly what they feel is an integral part of their identity, then why shouldn’t they? There’s no good reason not to. One last question, for **Mockingbird**. You said: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mockingbird \* > **And that white males are always told they should be ashamed is because they have been and are the reigining power structure. The patriarchy is the structure that is being railed against, not every individual white male.** I really don’t understand this at all. It’s individual white males who make up the structure you describe. If it is not individual white males that are being “railed against,” then who is it? What good does it do to fight a structure, unless you’re also fighting the individuals who support that structure. Sorry, your statement above just seems like a false distinction… it sounds a little like “hate the sin, love the sinner,” which frankly also has always rung untrue to me. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/26 "2003-06-02T21:21:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mockingbird \* > **Gay people holdin hands and walking down the street often get the same “eeeeeew” reserved for public disembowlings and splatter movies.** While I dont doubt that you have experienced this, **Mockingbird** , as I know it happens, I can also say that you and I live in different neighborhoods. That doesn’t happen where we live. I’m sorry if it has happened to you, but it’s not fair to say it happens everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Conflict\_of\_Interest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/57b2e6/32.png) [@Conflict\_of\_Interest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conflict_of_Interest)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/27 "2003-06-02T21:23:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mockingbird \* > \*\*Are there laws made against who you are to separate you from the rest of society as you are also accused of wanting special rights? > > Do you risk being physically assaulted for leaving a straight bar on the basis of your sexual preference? > > Have you only had “freedom” from police harassment of the bars and restaurants that cater to people of your persuasion for about 25 years? > > Why do the celebrations of others threaten you? > > Everyday _is_ straight pride day. > > Gay people being affectionate on television or in movies is an extreme rarity, while in movies, straight people try and give each other tonsillectomies with their tongues. They have such scorching hot, sweaty monkey love it is starting to look like an extreme hygeine film with pubic hair topiary gardens. > > Straight people can hold hands and walk down the street and the general reaction is the same “awwwww” reserved for babies and kittens. > > Gay people holdin hands and walking down the street often get the same “eeeeeew” reserved for public disembowlings and splatter movies. > > The list of inequities goes on and on. > > So, Happy Straight Pride Day! Enjoy the other 363 while we have _ONE_ day. > > 😃 \*\* Talk about over reacting. You sure assume alot. I am not threatened. But you sure sound threatened by my asking why there is a need for special days. Ill need cites to establish that all your complaints are common occurances. Some, if not all may have been in the past but I don’t think they are still. And I’m sure that you would class me as homophobic just because I don’t agree with you. But I guess not all can be unbiased. Oh, and if you want to feel pride in your being gay all 365 days of the year you can do so without any special day named for it. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/28 "2003-06-02T21:29:45Z")
I have no problem with the things that are celebrated on Gay Pride Day. But I do think the use of the term “pride” is odd, for reasons described above (and that applies to Black Pride days, etc, as well). It seems to me that there ought to be a better word for what’s being celebrated. Gay Solidarity, perhaps? Gay Unity? Gay Strength? Oh well. At the end of the day it’s just a semantic quibble anyhow – I doubt anyone is seriously confused by the term “Gay Pride.” ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/29 "2003-06-02T21:47:25Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **musicguy** _ > > Actually, in the past few months, I have spent quite a bit of time in Hillcrest, in San Diego, (your neck of the woods)… Not mine - I’m farther north. > [@](#): > > … and have been quite impressed and moved by the gay community there. I find it wonderful that there can be a place where I can walk around and be openly gay with my boyfriend. It has had quite an effect on me and I think community is a very important and beautiful thing. So isn’t that worth celebrating? Why not take pride in the hard work over decades of thousands of people to finally be able to create a space where we can be free to be ourselves without fear of retribution? I think that’s great! > [@](#): > > I will admit that I have never been to a gay pride festival and I am thinking that it would be a good idea to get a better idea of the whole concept. “Pride” has always just seemed to be inappropriate. I wish I could think of a name that would be better. “Gay Celebration”, perhaps. You’ve never been to a parade or festival and you’re asking why we should have one? I find that kind of, well, for lack of a better word, ignorant. They’re not my favorite thing for other reasons, but really, give it a try before you make any judgements. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/30 "2003-06-02T21:49:57Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **musicguy** _ > > I see where you are coming from. I don’t think that being gay, in and of itself, is necessarily something to be proud of, but surviving and being happy in a primarily straight world, considering the amount of bigotry one must face, is an accomplishment. To be able to do that is something that one should be proud of. Indeed - perhaps it isn’t “being gay” that we’re celebrating, but rather it is _because_ we’re gay, and have faced and overcome so many challenges, that we should be _proud_ of ourselves and our community. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/31 "2003-06-02T21:54:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > **You’ve never been to a parade or festival and you’re asking why we should have one? I find that kind of, well, for lack of a better word, ignorant. They’re not my favorite thing for other reasons, but really, give it a try before you make any judgements.** **Esprix** … he’s _asking_. How is it ignorant to ask a question? Do you think he doesn’t really care about the answer? That’s not the impression I get from him at all. Rather than attacking him for being judgmental (I don’t think he is), why not give him an honest answer, _sans_ the defensiveness? ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/32 "2003-06-02T21:56:03Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **musicguy** _ > > I guess I would like the “pride” part to be reserved for the people that actually do something with their life and make a contribution, rather than being an all-encompassing thing just because you happen to be something that you had no control over. I daresay that being out and acting as a role model or inspiration to others is perhaps one of the best examples of “doing something with your life and making a contribution,” no? Esprix ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/33 "2003-06-02T21:56:35Z")
How about just “Gay Day (or week, or month, for that matter)”? The day that celebrates the acomplishments and spirit of the gay communtity. I always liked the concept of Black History month, a time in which a little more attention is given to the black community so that people might learn about and understand the culture a little better. There is nothing wrong, IMO, with focusing on a segment of society that has much to offer, but is misunderstood in many regards. And yes, it may all be semantics, as **dewey** states. But choice of words is very important if you want to convey your message as clearly as possible. I don’t think that “Gay Pride” really captures the whole concept. Many will read it as "I’m proud that I have sex with other males \* " . While technically correct, I suppose, it misses the bigger picture. In some strange way, that I can’t entirely put my finger on, “gay pride” has a bit of a devisive ring to it. And yet, the celebration is all about inclusiveness. Hell, maybe I’ve just never been comfortable with the word “Pride” 🙂 I don’t feel that I am any better than any other person so what is there to be proud of, except, in some small way, of what you worked hard to achieve. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/34 "2003-06-02T21:59:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by musicguy \* > \*\* > I am gay but I don’t feel any pride over it, basically because I don’t think I had a choice in the matter. I don’t feel any pride in being white, or because I have brown hair. I am proud of my accomplishments, proud of my work ethic, proud of the way I try to lead my life. These are all things that I have worked hard for. > \*\* I can understand how you feel. I’m certainly not proud because I’m white or that my ancestors come from various parts of western Europe. So what’s up with gay pride? I didn’t grow up with people telling me that being white was an abomination, I never had to hide the fact that I was white for fear of persecution, and I’ve never felt alone because I was white. I think the whole pride thing is a response to so much negativity. When people have been coming down on you your whole life it might be nice to be able to stand up and say “This isn’t wrong and I’m ok.” That’s what gay pride is all about to me. Of course what some of those things in the parades have to do with gay pride is beyond me. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/35 "2003-06-02T22:06:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Of course what some of those things in the parades have to do with gay pride is beyond me. I think some of it just ends up being certain people out then to have a good time and goof off. And maybe it just attracts a certain amount of attention whores. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/36 "2003-06-02T22:07:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > > Rather than attacking him for being judgmental (I don’t think he is), why not give him an honest answer, _sans_ the defensiveness? I think I and others have. I hope it helps. I did not mean to be mean, but it did strike me as odd. Apologies. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/37 "2003-06-02T22:13:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\*I daresay that being out and acting as a role model or inspiration to others is perhaps one of the best examples of “doing something with your life and making a contribution,” no? > > Esprix \*\* Yes. Being a role model and an inspiration to others is a noble thing and makes a hell of a contribution to society. But not everyone who is gay is a role model or inspiration. I’m not sure that the mere fact that someone is gay makes them these things. If I am gay and I hurt people and lie and do bad things, I’m not deserving of pride, no matter how gay I am. Also, please don’t understand and think that I am in any way against gay people celebrating their history and accomplishments. I’ve tried very hard to make clear that I think the community _is_ something to be celebrated. Lastly, if I sound ignorant, I probably am to some extent. That is the reason I am here asking questions, to learn. We all are ignorant in one way or another. Doesn’t mean we have to remain that way. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/38 "2003-06-02T22:19:06Z")
Well as for the term “Gay Pride”, from what I understand the parades and celebrations stem from the Gay _Liberation_ Movement. It was not a term designed to make straight people feel comfortable or to unite all of society under the banner, but rather to be aggressively assaulting the society they felt was oppressing them. Its a movement thats died down in the recent years in favor of a more assimilationist bent (“We’re more alike than we are different”), but organizations like Queer Nation and ACT UP still float around a bit in some areas. At least partially, from my view, the liberation movement countered heterosexism with homosexism, in a way similar to the Black Panthers (“Black is Beautiful”). Though the day and feel has changed, the name is still stuck. Does it remain appropriate? Debatable. However, there _should_ be a day when gay people can cut loose and party. There should be a day when gay people can march for their causes. No one begrudges the Irish their St. Patrick’s Day parade. Certainly no one begrudges straight people (and to a varying degree, gay people) celebrating sex with Mardi Gras. For good or ill, just like the Gay and Lesbian section at a Barnes and Noble, politics and sex have been welded together because getting just one day out of the year is difficult in many places. I dunno if there’s a point in those ramblings, but there it is… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/39 "2003-06-02T22:22:35Z")
Uh, Mardi Gras isn’t about sex. I thought it was supposed traditionally the last big indulgence before Lent (and fasting). As for White Pride, I would say, is it okay to have Irish Pride, or Polish Pride? I love my shamrocks and my pierogies. Perhaps it’s more of a case, not so much of proud of being gay, but that people are proud to ADMIT to being gay-they aren’t ashamed. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/40 "2003-06-02T22:29:33Z")
Indulgence, **Guin** , always translates into three things 1. Food. Lots of it, preferably good but at least huge portions. 2. Booze. Again, quantity over quality. 3. Sex. See above. Mardi Gras was about cutting loose and flouting morals for one day before you slammed down real hard in prep for Easter. Ideally, one should commit each of the Seven Deadly Sins at least one time during the partying. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196.md?page=3)