# Gay Pride? Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196 "2003-06-02T19:32:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/61 "2003-06-03T14:12:54Z")
\>Every time the papers mention the President’s wife, or two \>movie stars getting married, it ceebrates its orientation. Well, if you want to look at everything through those colored glasses of yours, go right ahead. However, this seems to be just a case of irrational sensitivity - I might as well be furious that Robert Jordanites are being victimized by people talking about other fantasy series. Have a nice day, Athelas ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/62 "2003-06-03T14:19:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by athelas \* > \*\*\>Every time the papers mention the President’s wife, or two > \>movie stars getting married, it ceebrates its orientation. > > Well, if you want to look at everything through those colored glasses of yours, go right ahead. However, this seems to be just a case of irrational sensitivity - I might as well be furious that Robert Jordanites are being victimized by people talking about other fantasy series. > > Have a nice day, > Athelas \*\* I suspect that you’re not reading these posts very carefully. Re-read the Richard Chamberlain quote, and think about the reaction if the President had a male partner instead of a wife. In any event, your opinion doesn’t matter. I intend to celebrate our heritage and survival with my gay and straight brothers and sisters. You are welcome to celebrate with us if you choose. ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/63 "2003-06-03T15:31:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by athelas \* > \*\*Whee! First flame _and_ first moderator note. 🙂 > > People seem to take my post as offensive…not exactly sure why. Is it the misspelling of “special”, implying that gays speak with a lithp? (That was just a silly insert, if so). Or is it the statement itself? If so, I don’t know that it should offend, for the statement reflects a fact. Unless, of course, a fact is offensive. (Little MT reference there) > > Athelas \*\* The statement is offensive, IMO, because the “silly insert” reinforces a stereotype. Also, the idea that gays are special or want special rights is incorrect. There isn’t one thing that the gay community is asking for that isn’t already available to straight society (health care,hospital visitation rights, the right to marry, etc.). Show me one “special” thing that we want, that you don’t already have. ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/64 "2003-06-03T15:57:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Any man or woman, boy or girl, who feels it important to tell the world that he or she is a worthwhile human being, the equal of anyone else, who is pleased and happy to be who he or she is, has my full support. I’ve been there; I know how it feels. And they can call the event in which they celebrate that sense of self-worth by any name they choose. \*\* **Poly** , thanks for contributing to my thread and sharing some of your past. I agree with every part of the quoted statement but only partially with the last sentence. I’m not saying that they can’t call it anthing they like. Clearly though, I’m not the only one in this thread that thinks that “gay pride” is a little off the mark. That doesn’t mean that I am in any way saying that people shouldn’t be proud of their acheivements, especially in a world where so many spend so much time trying to convince us that we are wrong or evil. Surviving and prospering in that environment is definitely an accomplishment. I’m not always good at clearly articulating my opinion. This, I will admit. I don’t mean disrespect by anything I’ve stated though. Say, I was heterosexual and stated “I am proud that I am straight”. Wouldn’t that sound a little ridiculous? I just don’t see that sexual orientation, in and of itself, is something to be proud of. How can I be proud of something that took no effort on my part. Now, the ability to be successful, be a good moral person, and a contributer to the community and society in general, is something that one should be proud of. There are many gays out there that fit this description. But I still think that it is the accomplishments that one should be proud of, not the sexual orientation. I don’t feel that I should be either proud or ashamed of something I have no control over. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/65 "2003-06-03T16:17:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Say, I was heterosexual and stated “I am proud that I am straight”. Wouldn’t that sound a little ridiculous? I just don’t see that sexual orientation, in and of itself, is something to be proud of. How can I be proud of something that took no effort on my part. Now, the ability to be successful, be a good moral person, and a contributer to the community and society in general, is something that one should be proud of. There are many gays out there that fit this description. But I still think that it is the accomplishments that one should be proud of, not the sexual orientation. I don’t feel that I should be either proud or ashamed of something I have no control over. **musicguy** , you surprise me. If gay people got the same respect and accpetance that straight people get, if the sight of same-sex couples ent unnoticed and unremearked, if preachers didn’t attack us from the pulpit every Sunday, if polititicians didn’t get points from denouncing us, if we were accpeted as completely normal by our society, then Gay Pride would not need to exist. Gay Pride exists so that we can hold our heads up when others tell us to cower. It is a trumpet of defiance to Rick Santorum and his kind. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/66 "2003-06-03T16:27:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by musicguy \* > > All I’m suggesting is that if, in fact, the current way of doing things may not be as affective at conveying this new meaning, then maybe the current way should be questioned. Not necessarily changed radically, just questioned. The message of community celebration and individual pride seems to be working for most people just fine. > [@](#): > > There is so much that still needs to be accomplished. We are far from being equal in the grand scheme of things and that needs to change. It is in everyones best interest that the path we are taking towards that goal is the most effective one. I’m not convinced that “Gay Pride” is necessarily the most effective path. That doesn’t mean I’m trying to degrade its meaning or historical context in any way. Well it’s not like Pride is the _only_ aspect of the LGBT community that happens every year… Esprix ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/67 "2003-06-03T16:30:20Z")
\>The statement is offensive, IMO, because the “silly insert” reinforces a stereotype. There’s a sterotype? Oh well…I had no idea. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/68 "2003-06-03T16:45:38Z")
To all those who have mentioned “well there’s no such thing as straight pride”, I call total bullshit. Does it sound ridiculous to say “straight pride”? Yes it does. Not, however, for the reason many people leap onto. Straight pride, straight feeling of self-worth and the worthiness of their relationships _comes automatic in much of this society_. We are raised on movies that exalt the power of love between a man and a woman. We see that message reflected in the lives of those we grow up surrounded by, in the lives of people we are supposed to model ourselves after. We are thrilled when a man and a woman find true love together. From the celebrities on down to our next door neighbor, we think its absolutely wonderful when a man and a woman get married. Straight pride doesn’t need to scream once a year because it whispers every day. A lot of straight people don’t notice because the message meshes perfectly with them. It resonates and affirms them. Straight pride is, for the most part, a beautiful thing. However, it sounds weird. It sounds weird in the same way as someone shouting, in the middle of a crowd on the streets of New York “THERE ARE LOTS OF PEOPLE LIVING HERE”. That person would be absolutely correct. She or he would also be considered slightly whacked out for stating something so incredibly obvious. _Its weird_. ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/69 "2003-06-03T17:44:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\ ***musicguy** , you surprise me. If gay people got the same respect and accpetance that straight people get, if the sight of same-sex couples ent unnoticed and unremearked, if preachers didn’t attack us from the pulpit every Sunday, if polititicians didn’t get points from denouncing us, if we were accpeted as completely normal by our society, then Gay Pride would not need to exist. > > Gay Pride exists so that we can hold our heads up when others tell us to cower. It is a trumpet of defiance to Rick Santorum and his kind. \*\* I’m not sure I understand. I am fully aware of the discrimination that we face. I am also quite vocal when I encounter people who still hold bigoted views. I want change just as much as you do and fully support all efforts to make gay people more accepted in society. I’m also currently exploring ways that I may do some volunteer work in the gay community. These things are very important to me. When I start contributing to the cause through volunteer work or otherwise, then I feel I will have something to be proud of. I will be contributing. Right now, the only way I am contributing is by trying to lead a morally good life and be a good example to others. While this is admirable, I suppose. I don’t do it because I am gay. I do it because it is the right thing to do. Maybe that is why I have a hard time justifying being proud of being gay. It takes no effort to be gay in itself. It does take effort to make a difference. I am fully willing to conceded that as I get more involved in the community, my opinions may change on this topic. Maybe i’m just not seeing the whole picture yet. I’m in no way against the idea of celebrating the beauty that is the gay community. As I said earlier, it has only been recently that I have been exposed to this and any naivety on my part is simply because this is all very new to me. My purpose of this thread has been only to question the term “Gay Pride”, not question whether or not there is anything for gay people to be proud of. Of course there is. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/70 "2003-06-03T18:22:47Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **musicguy** _ > > My purpose of this thread has been only to question the term “Gay Pride”, not question whether or not there is anything for gay people to be proud of. Well if that’s the case, I seriously doubt the term “gay pride” is going to change any time soon, even if you or I consider it a misnomer. You can reference “homophobia” the same way. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/71 "2003-06-03T19:03:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by athelas \* > \*\*Whee! First flame _and_ first moderator note. 🙂 > > People seem to take my post as offensive…not exactly sure why. Is it the misspelling of “special”, implying that gays speak with a lithp? (That was just a silly insert, if so). Or is it the statement itself? If so, I don’t know that it should offend, for the statement reflects a fact. Unless, of course, a fact is offensive. (Little MT reference there) > \*\* Provide a cite and prove that it is a fact, or you need to retract it and apologize. ---
**Author:** ![mojave66](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mojave66](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mojave66)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/72 "2003-06-03T21:51:49Z")
> [@](#): > > My take was that is was biologically abnormal but psychologically neutral. It is, biologically speaking, extremely common in all sorts of animals that reproduce sexually. It’s only “abnormal” if you use the word abnormal in the statistical sense. And even then, the most mathematically normal sexual act among primates for instance is bisexuality. Heck, you could make the case that strict heterosexuality is therefore abnormal. > [@](#): > > If I’m right, then eventually a medical scenario will arise that will allow for genetic alteration of sexuality. Considering how complex sexuality is, someone likened this to reaching into a big machine we don’t understand and pulling out some random wires just because we don’t like the color. We have NO idea what that will do, or how much damage that will cause. End of hijack. BTW, Priam’s right up there, “Gay Pride” is a historical term. I like it because we need to acknowledge that history. For anyone who’s never lived through the “bad old days”, it’s pretty tough to imagine. It wasn’t just a matter of not being out, it was a matter of spending a LOT of time and effort covering up your tracks, making sure you didn’t get caught at the wrong bar by the police who would publish your name in the newspaper, making sure that you found a friend of the opposite sex who would go with you to office parties and the like, even if you were in a long-term relationship, constantly reading about how mentally ill/criminal/sinful you were. Gay Pride was a way of publicly negating the shame of those times. There’s a story about Harvey Milk. During a longshoremen’s strike the Longshoremen’s Union was drumming up support. Milk was a progressive so of course he supported them, but he asked the Union if they’d be willing to hire from his community, and surprisingly, the Union agreed. So he told gay folks in the Castro that if they wanted jobs, all they had to do was go to the Longshoremen’s Hall, tell them they were gay, and they’d get a job. Interestingly enough, very few people took him up on it because it was just too traumatic to say “Hi, I’m \_\_\_\_ and I’m a gay man/gay woman.” It was just too otherworldly. Which was precisely Milk’s point. He wanted to show these gay men and lesbians that it was OK to use these words, that bad things didn’t always happen if they called themselves gay. It was an incredible revelation at the time. That kind of extreme caution and internalized shame not something we queer folks in this day and age always understand. This is why I like the term “Gay Pride.” It always reminds me of how far we’ve gone in 30-some years. It may or may not be a relevant term now-- am I proud that I happened to be born lesbian? Not really. I feel lucky, though. I feel lucky to have been born in this historical period. It does make me proud to celebrate my community and how “gay” has evolved, and how everyone in San Francisco celebrates it irregardless of sexual orientation. That gives me hope for humanity. ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/73 "2003-06-03T22:21:21Z")
**mohave66** , Thank you for posting that. It makes a lot of sense and gives me hope too 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/74 "2003-06-03T22:23:13Z")
> [@](#): > > ## quote: > > Originally posted by athelas > Whee! First flame and first moderator note. > > People seem to take my post as offensive…not exactly sure why. Is it the misspelling of “special”, implying that gays speak with a lithp? (That was just a silly insert, if so). Or is it the statement itself? If so, I don’t know that it should offend, for the statement reflects a fact. Unless, of course, a fact is offensive. (Little MT reference there) > > * * * > > Provide a cite and prove that it is a fact, or you need to retract it and apologize. I suppose a [Cecil Link](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a950526.html) is appropriate here. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/75 "2003-06-04T05:58:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\* I think the whole pride thing is a response to so much negativity. When people have been coming down on you your whole life it might be nice to be able to stand up and say “This isn’t wrong and I’m ok.” That’s what gay pride is all about to me. \*\* Well said, Marc. Thanks! :)D > [@](#): > > \*\*Of course what some of those things in the parades have to do with gay pride is beyond me. \*\* You can blame the media on that, I think! 😃 I ran the pride parade for 3 years when I lived in Milwaukee, so I saw everyone who participated. For every outlandish drag queen or 300 lb. guy in a pink tu-tu with sequins there were easily hundreds of avg. looking joes and janes, wearing jeans and t-shirts simply proclaiming their gay pride. You can guess which ones the TV cameras and reporters focused in on. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/76 "2003-06-04T06:11:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freyr \* > I ran the pride parade for 3 years when I lived in Milwaukee, so I saw everyone who participated. For every outlandish drag queen or 300 lb. guy in a pink tu-tu with sequins there were easily hundreds of avg. looking joes and janes, wearing jeans and t-shirts simply proclaiming their gay pride. You can guess which ones the TV cameras and reporters focused in on. :rolleyes: \*\* He’s right. Gay pride and Halloween were the two days in Milwaukee where I was invisible. Damn, that was nice. ---
**Author:** ![Potter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Potter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Potter)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/77 "2003-06-04T09:16:01Z")
To follow on with what a lot of posters here have already touched on, Pride is about _visibility_ in what is often referred to as a heterocentric society. We are not being over-sensitive to say that the world is a heterosexual world every day of our lives. Can you try to imagine, seriously, how it would feel if every message you were getting from your society (TV, movies, commercials and marketing, greetings cards, magazines etc) was telling you being gay was normal. If all you saw around you were men kissing and holding hands and living their gay lil lives and in doing so, showing you how _different_ you are. That you and your life is not normal, that your sexuality is to be sectionned away from the regular portion of society who find you distasteful. Pride is about taking up space - gay sexuality is confined to specialist stores if we want to buy a romantic card for a boyfriend that does not feature a predominantly heterosexual message. We have our small specialist movie festivals, our late night TV shows, our lifestyle magazines which always seem to be confined to the top shelf along with softcore porn, because we are not normal. So one day a year, we claim the right to take up space, to say “Today we are the visible ones. Today I will hold my boyfriend’s hand and walk in a crowd where this is the norm, where I won’t be looked upon as flaunting anything just because I am happy and in love. Today I am part of a society that does not expect me to hide away and be grateful for the little space I am allowed to live in.” And I _have_ fought and worked hard to be who I am, an out and proud gay man. I have been beaten. I have been kicked out of home. I have lost friends and been judged. I have been kicked and spat upon and been insulted purely because of who I am and who I choose to sleep with. But still, I am open and vocal about my sexuality, I am proud of this. The more visibility we demand (by being out at work as well as at home, by holding a lover’s hand in public, by simply refusing to hide who we are and hang the consequences) the more we further the fight to be accepted as a normal portion of society. I love the term Gay Pride because it means many things to me, and makes me part of a history. I am proud of who I am and what I have had to overcome. I am intensely proud that these small things that I have done have added to a struggle that has been going on for years. And everytime I see an indication of how far we’ve come, those small things that show us we’re making a difference, I feel proud to have had a part in making that difference happen. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/78 "2003-06-04T10:11:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mockingbird \* > **Gay people holdin hands and walking down the street often get the same “eeeeeew” reserved for public disembowlings and splatter movies.** I often “eeeeeew” at yucky couples getting it on in public places, or being offensively (IMO) sloppily romantic. Interestingly, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a gay couple turn my stomach like this. But moon-faced cow-eyed cutesy-boys-and-girls, the sort that send each other hugz cards and put snugglefluffibum wuvs you type messages in the newspapers on Valentines days, and slobber all over each other in the supermarket and the doctor’s waiting room: **EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWW** To the power of google plex cubed. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/79 "2003-06-04T11:23:40Z")
> [@](#): > > every outlandish drag queen or 300 lb. guy in a pink tu-tu with sequins… Not that there’s anything wrong with being a drag queen, or a 300 lb. guy in a tutu… ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196/80 "2003-06-04T11:40:31Z")
> [@](#): > > But moon-faced cow-eyed cutesy-boys-and-girls, the sort that send each other hugz cards and put snugglefluffibum wuvs you type messages in the newspapers on Valentines days, :eek: Oh shit, **Potter** , we’re in trouble. love you, sunflower! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-pride-why/179196.md?page=5)