# “Gay” (Re: How did "gay" come to mean "homosexual"?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [June 2, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100 "2011-06-02T17:02:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/1 "2011-06-02T17:02:01Z")
_In re:_ [How did “gay” come to mean “homosexual”?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/517/how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual) “Since we are the reason for the 90s being gay, We all wear a green carnation.” — Noël Coward, _Bitter Sweet_, 1929 ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/2 "2011-06-03T16:22:12Z")
[QUOTE=Cecil Adams] Whether all male homosexuals would consent to be called gay — whether, for the matter, all **gays** would consent to be called homosexual — is a question I will not presume to answer. [/QUOTE] I’d actually be more interested in how they feel about “gay” being used as a noun. Not being snarky, I’m genuinely curious. It sounds a bit demeaning to my ears, but I’m not a gay, so what do I know? ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/3 "2011-06-03T17:21:43Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > I’d actually be more interested in how they feel about “gay” being used as a noun. > > Not being snarky, I’m genuinely curious. It sounds a bit demeaning to my ears, but I’m not a gay, so what do I know? I am one gay man who finds the use of the word as a noun to be annoying. To me it is an adjective. ---
**Author:** ![psgoodguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b19c9b/32.png) [@psgoodguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psgoodguy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/4 "2011-06-03T17:21:54Z")
up until the late 70’s we all called ourselves gay, men and women. the feminist movement empowered the women to own their own label and they began to demand that we use the term lesbian when referring to them. also, many lesbians wanted to take the “man” out of everything and also referred to themselves as womyn. at this point, the annual Gay Pride parade and events changed to Lesbian and Gay Pride. once AIDS reared it’s ugly head, the womyn’s separatist movement pretty much ended and it was the lesbians who first came to the aid of the gay male community, organizing new AIDS service organizations in particular and, in general, providing aid and comfort to those dying. we owe them much gratitude. sometime after that, the bi-sexuals demanded inclusion and it became LGB Pride. at about the same time the transgendered community also wanted in on the fun and so today we have the LGBT community, tho many question why trans people are included as their issues are a question of gender identity and not sexual orientation. we are a very diverse community that somehow manages to come together under one big rainbow flag. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/5 "2011-06-03T17:43:40Z")
**psgoodguy** , is this the column you’re referring to? [How did “gay” come to mean “homosexual”?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/517/how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual) When commenting on one of Cecil’s colums, it is helpful to others to post a link to the column in question. Also, did you mean to reply to **John W. Kennedy’s** thread in this forum? > **[“Gay” (Re: How did "gay" come to mean "homosexual"?)](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=610921)** > > In re: How did “gay” come to mean “homosexual”? “Since we are the reason for the 90s being gay, We all wear a green carnation.” — Noël Coward, Bitter Sweet, 1929 ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/6 "2011-06-03T18:21:52Z")
But that’s a common enough thing in English where adjectives that are used frequently become nouns. Like the word “deep”. It describes water for example, but can be used in the phrase “the deep”. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/7 "2011-06-03T19:04:37Z")
Mod note: I have merged the two threads on the same topic, with the same title. That is, **psgoodguy** and **cochrane** ’s posts are now in the thread started by **John W. Kennedy** ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/8 "2011-06-03T22:11:52Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > But that’s a common enough thing in English where adjectives that are used frequently become nouns. > > Like the word “deep”. It describes water for example, but can be used in the phrase “the deep”. I think it’s a lot closer to “black” becoming “blacks” than something as innocent as “the deep.” ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/9 "2011-06-03T23:44:14Z")
Aren’t we up to LGBTQ now? ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/10 "2011-06-04T00:02:13Z")
Nevertheless, it is so that the use of an adjective as a substantive is so common that there’s a word just to facilitate discussing it, _viz._, “substantive”. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/11 "2011-06-04T16:54:36Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > I think it’s a lot closer to “black” becoming “blacks” than something as innocent as “the deep.” What does “innocent” have to do with it? Yes, that is a more parallel example, because it refers to groups of people rather than something else, but it’s still the same process. ---
**Author:** ![samjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@samjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samjones)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/12 "2011-06-04T17:30:12Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > It sounds a bit demeaning to my ears, but I’m not one of them gays, so what do I know? Reads better ---
**Author:** ![MetaliMolly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@MetaliMolly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MetaliMolly)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/13 "2011-06-04T18:00:49Z")
> [@psgoodguy](#): > > stuff that’s completely wrong About the only thing you got right here is that there are such things as lesbians, bisexuals, gays and transsexuals. Lesbian has been in use since around the turn of the century at least, with most of the current forms of female seperatism coming afterwards as far as purposefully getting together to form their own communities and villages. As for transsexuals, they’ve been part of the queer rights movement since at least the Stonewall riots (And ahead of the curve in throwing the cafeteria riots in california a few years earlier). It’s not a matter of ‘well what’s with all these transsexuals just showing up,’ it’s that transmen and transwomen have been part of it since the very beginning. ---
**Author:** ![pakalolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/57b2e6/32.png) [@pakalolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pakalolo)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/14 "2011-06-04T18:16:53Z")
> [@](#): > > sometime after that, the bi-sexuals demanded inclusion and it became LGB Pride. at about the same time the transgendered community also wanted in on the fun and so today we have the LGBT community, > [@](#): > > Aren’t we up to LGBTQ now? Sincerely wondering how queer could be another category not already represented with the categories of gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, and transgender. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/15 "2011-06-04T18:42:20Z")
> [@pakalolo](#): > > Sincerely wondering how queer could be another category not already represented with the categories of gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, and transgender. I think the Q means “questioning.” In other words, a person may be unsure of his sexuality, so the LGBTQ groups encourage those people to come along. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/16 "2011-06-04T18:43:49Z")
And, I guess I didn’t get the latest magazine. Isn’t “queer” a slur towards homosexuals, much like “nigger” is to blacks? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/17 "2011-06-04T18:57:36Z")
Some people advocate a take back the word approach. There’s also genderqueer which is basically people who don’t feel any desire to match traditional conceptions of gender and don’t particularly care if that upsets straights. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/18 "2011-06-04T23:03:11Z")
> [@MetaliMolly](#): > > About the only thing you got right here is that there are such things as lesbians, bisexuals, gays and transsexuals. > > Lesbian has been in use since around the turn of the century at least… . Well, yes, in scietific and psycho/sociological and medical literature. When did lesbians start self-identifying as “lesbians?” Not until the middle of the 20th century I’ll wager. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/19 "2011-06-05T00:31:12Z")
The very etymology of the word “lesbian” strongly suggests a non-clinical origin. ---
**Author:** ![fishlegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5f8ce5/32.png) [@fishlegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fishlegs)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100/20 "2011-06-05T02:38:19Z")
Forgive me if I am not posting this correctly… the format on this message board is confusing… but there was a question asked concerning the origin of the term “gay” as relating to a male homosexual… and I thought that this little known fact might shed some light on both the term gay, and also the term fag. The Yiddish term FAYGALA: A male homosexual. (literally, little bird.) …yup, pronounced fag gayla… maybe just a coincidence…but there it is. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-re-how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual/584100.md?page=2)