# Gay Subtexts I Probably Missed In Films **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 7, 2005, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947 "2005-08-07T03:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/81 "2005-08-09T19:23:50Z")
> [@ascenray](#): > > Are you talking about Withnail or about Uncle Monty? I thought Uncle Monty’s pursuit of … uh … “I” (did he even have a name?) was pretty obvious. The subtext concerns Uncle Monty’s nephew, Withnail Montague (played by Richard E. Grant). Uncle Monty’s a flaming queen, but his nephew has been suffering from a crush on the “I” (Peter Marwood) character (played by Paul McGann) which he cannot acknowledge. The strongest hints are the card game scene (when Uncle Monty and his nephew share a titter over the queens – “There she is!”) and Withnail’s “Hamlet” soliloquy at the end ("…no, nor women neither.") ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/82 "2005-08-09T19:31:09Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > _The Man Without a Face_ IIRC had in its source material gay content which Gibson excised for the film version. Nothing overtly gay, just the kid questioning his sexuality. The film replaced the the complicated questions Isabelle Holland wrote into the story, however, with a cheap pedophilia charge. (The movie wasn’t half-bad up until that point.) ---
**Author:** ![Lisa-go-Blind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Lisa-go-Blind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lisa-go-Blind)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/83 "2005-08-09T22:17:57Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > “I” (did he even have a name?) [Apparently, it’s Peter Marwood.](http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0094336/) It’s not mentioned in the movie as I recall, but it was in the original script. Plus, it’s much easier to refer to the character as “Marwood” rather than “I.” > [@The Scrivener](#): > > The subtext concerns Uncle Monty’s nephew, Withnail Montague (played by Richard E. Grant). Uncle Monty’s a flaming queen, but his nephew has been suffering from a crush on the “I” (Peter Marwood) character (played by Paul McGann) which he cannot acknowledge. The strongest hints are the card game scene (when Uncle Monty and his nephew share a titter over the queens – “There she is!”) and Withnail’s “Hamlet” soliloquy at the end ("…no, nor women neither.") I tend to go back and forth on this one. In addition to what you mentioned, I find Withnail’s secret “accusation” to Uncle Monty that Marwood is gay interesting. Not to mention that Marwood has to claim that he and Withnail are lovers in order to avoid being buggered by Uncle Monty. Did Withnail know (or hope) that Marwood would tell Monty this? Sometimes, though, I just think that Withnail’s attachment to Marwood stems from his immaturity. It’s no fun being in society’s outskirts alone. He needs someone to be unsuccessful with him so that he doesn’t have to face the reality that’s his life’s a waste and it’s basically his own fault. When Marwood goes to the audition and begins to have a promising future, he has to leave Withnail behind because Withnail will never be able to pull himself together and do something with his life. Now that Marwood’s gone he’ll have to face that alone. That’s what makes Withnail such a tragic character: either he’s harboring a secret desire/love for his best friend who’s leaving him, or he’s trapped in perpetual adolescence alone. Possibly both. I think Bruce Robinson purposely wrote Withnail’s sexuality to be ambiguous. Is there a gay subtext in the movie? Maybe, maybe not. I can see it both ways. For the time being, though, I have to say that I’m leaning toward your interpretation of it. I’ll have to watch it tonight and see; it’s one of my favorite movies. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/84 "2005-08-09T23:00:33Z")
> [@Sir Rhosis](#): > > Yes, I’ve also long been aware of the Sal Mineo crush on James Dean stuff from **Rebel**. As I’m not familiar with the original book or the screenplay, does anyone know if this was supposed to be in there, or, as suggested, was it just Sal Mineo doing the “crush” looks on purpose? I would call that text rather than subtext. The first time I ever saw that film I kept thinking: how did this get past the censors in its day??? What about _Spartacus_, and the famous oysters and clams scene between Olivier and Curtis? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/85 "2005-08-09T23:19:04Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > What about _Spartacus_, and the famous oysters and clams scene between Olivier and Curtis? [What about it?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6450369&postcount=66) ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/86 "2005-08-09T23:57:37Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Ann Rice, little Miss I’m a Gay Vampire Fundy Catholic Trapped In a Woman’s Body. That sounds like it would chafe. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/87 "2005-08-10T00:31:14Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > [What about it?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6450369&postcount=66) Damn. I thought I read the whole thread and didn’t see a reference. My bad, and I didn’t even remember the correct mollusks, either! ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/88 "2005-08-10T02:02:51Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > … > > _Fried Green Tomatoes_, if we’re not limiting ourselves to boys. But I’m sure everyone knows that one. Several straight female friends of mine totally missed any lesbian vibe in this movie. They had no idea what the rest of us were talking about. > [@Hamish](#): > > One movie I’ve always thought had a fair bit of subtext around the edges, but nobody seemed to notice, was The Lost Boys, at least with the main character. > > At various moments he’s watching a buff guy onstage with his mouth open, completely ignores the girl his brother obsesses over, has a poster of gorgeous male model in a seductive pose on his bedroom or closet door (!), and at one point is singing “I ain’t got a man” in the bathtub. > > He always dresses fasionably, and spends all his time around the two butchest guys in the city, with whom he has nearly nothing in common. Actually my brother and I thought there was something there too. Not so much with the younger brother (Corey Haim) though but with the dynamic between the older brother (Jason Patric) character Michael and the vampire played by Kiefer Sutherland. At times Michael seems more obsessed with Kiefer than with the girl. It seems obvious that Michael is fighting being seduced by the vampire “lifestyle” as represented by Kiefer. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/89 "2005-08-10T02:36:59Z")
> [@Laughing Lagomorph](#): > > Several straight female friends of mine totally missed any lesbian vibe in this movie. They had no idea what the rest of us were talking about. Cal Thomas rather famously wrote a column castigating lesbians for trying to “appropriate” the “friendship” between Idgie and Ruth. Call it missing the subtext, call it willful blindness. > [@LL](#): > > Actually my brother and I thought there was something there too. Not so much with the younger brother (Corey Haim) though but with the dynamic between the older brother (Jason Patric) character Michael and the vampire played by Kiefer Sutherland. At times Michael seems more obsessed with Kiefer than with the girl. I took any obsession of Michael’s toward Kiefer more as an alpha male thing at first, and later a “kill the head vampire” thing. Little Corey Haim, though, with his poster of a shirtless Rob Lowe on his _closet_ door and his pink “Born to Shop” shirt? Total fag. ---
**Author:** ![Q.N.Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3da27b/32.png) [@Q.N.Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.N.Jones)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/90 "2005-08-10T03:47:54Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > But if we can include tv shows, I’d like to nominate the original _He-Man: Masters of the Universe_. I can’t believe how blatant the homoerotica is, now. Looking back, that completely flew over our heads when we were kids, didn’t it? No way! Even when I was seven, I knew it was way gay when He-Man and Man-At-Arms both mounted Cringer at the same time! ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/91 "2005-08-10T04:35:42Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Cal Thomas rather famously wrote a column castigating lesbians for trying to “appropriate” the “friendship” between Idgie and Ruth. Call it missing the subtext, call it willful blindness. I’d be interested to read Cal’s column on the subject, but my google-fu is failing me. Do you have a link handy? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/92 "2005-08-10T05:17:25Z")
This column would’ve come out sometime in 1991. It may not be online. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/93 "2005-08-10T05:44:41Z")
Oh, barnacles. :smack: It would have been sweet to see Cal stick his foot in that one. “Sanctimonious” will someday feature his pic in the dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/94 "2005-08-12T07:06:36Z")
Not-very-sub text, Roy Batty seemed to have something going on with Leon as well as Priss in **Blade Runner**. Of course, the Replicants seemed to have something more like a group marriage than people pairing off. There was also the Oedipal (is that appropriate when Oedipus wants to nail his father as well as kill him?) scene with Roy and Tyrell. Good lord that boy was a bundle of emtions in that scene. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/95 "2005-08-12T07:22:31Z")
Oh, crap, I forgot the live-action **He-Man** movie. There’s the BDSM scene where Skeletor whips He-Man that brings the whole thing right the hell out of the closet. Looking back, the very name of the cartoon was suggestive: He-Man. Speaking of cartoons, **The Smurfs** whooshed me at about mach 2 when I was a kid. Now, I can’t help but notice Lion-O’s confusion with relationships, though that would have a lot to do with his being a different mental age than his physical one. Can you imagine having to deal with the height of your sexual drives while having on the experiences of a 9 year old and none of the adjustment time of early puberty? It seems to me now that he was dealing with a lot of inappropriate attractions toward all of the members of the crew. Though they did skew his attractions more in favor of Cheetara instead of Panthro (with his blatant leather-man harness) the same-sex attractions were still there. The usual confusion of adolecence and the sexualizing of normally non-sexual relationships, or burgeoning bisexuality? You decide. On the other hand, I haven’t seen **Thundercats** for years, so I may be reading a lot into it that wasn’t there except in my possibly biased memory. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/96 "2005-08-12T12:12:17Z")
> [@Sleel](#): > > Speaking of cartoons, **The Smurfs** whooshed me at about mach 2 when I was a kid. What about the Smurfs? ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/97 "2005-08-12T12:54:38Z")
**Goonies** There’s nothing gayer. Young asian guy with toys. A kid called “mouth”. A journey into the “Pirate’s Cave” marked my the lighthouse. The joy ride on “sloth’s back”. The search for One-Eyed Willie? Who’s the outcast? The tough jock. Might I regale you with some “memorable quotes”? Mama: The only thing we serve here is tongue! You boys like tongue? Mikey: Yo. Hi guys. How’s it going? This is Willie… One-Eyed Willie. Say hi, Willie. Those are my friends… the Goonies. The girl they’re friends with is named “Andy” and even she delivers this apology to them. . .“I hit the wrong note. I’m not Liberace you know!” ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/98 "2005-08-12T15:58:39Z")
There is an internet term for all this gay subtext: **hoyay** – short for homeroticism, yay! It originated on the website Television Without Pity: [http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/faq.cgi?show=0&q=1766](http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/faq.cgi?show=0&q=1766) ---
**Author:** ![Q.N.Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3da27b/32.png) [@Q.N.Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.N.Jones)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/99 "2005-08-12T17:01:59Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > The girl they’re friends with is named “Andy” and even she delivers this apology to them. . .“I hit the wrong note. I’m not Liberace you know!” And the other girl looks fairly androgynous. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947/100 "2005-08-12T17:41:43Z")
> [@Mirror Image egamI rorriM](#): > > But Arthur started to fall in love with Carmelita, who had the other moth suit (her father made them, and Arthur got his at a yard sale). Just for the record, I read this as “BEA Arthur,” which changed the meaning a little. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-subtexts-i-probably-missed-in-films/315947.md?page=6)