# Gay Teens: A Debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378 "2003-02-11T17:11:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/321 "2003-02-20T21:50:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crafter\_Man \* > \*\*I was just curious where the PC crowd stood on converting their beliefs into force. \*\* I am still curious as to what you would do if your kid turned out gay. Not to debate your answer, but it seems that telling a kid something is sinful before they are old enough to display tendencies one way or the other leaves your family open to a very awkward situation. Your kid is gay, you’ve been teaching her all her life that gay = sin, which I assume = hell. Now your kid is convinced she’s going to hell. Do you say, ‘well there’s no sense beating yourself up over it, just enjoy this brief time on earth and prepare to burn forever after’? Do you say, ‘well I was wrong, you’re not going to hell’, but inside feel terrible that she is in fact headed that way? Do you say nothing and pray for her soul? Are you just hoping it won’t happen and will cross that bridge if you come to it? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/322 "2003-02-20T21:57:47Z")
You are perfectly welcome to tell the flesh of your flesh that they are sinful degenerates if you care to do so. Of course, the public school system doesn’t have to back you up on it. ---
**Author:** ![Kalashnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/323 "2003-02-20T22:03:32Z")
Hey **Crafter\_Man** , would you support a law keeping me from teaching my kids that christianity is evil and wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/324 "2003-02-20T22:22:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalashnikov \* > \*\*Hey **Crafter\_Man** , would you support a law keeping me from teaching my kids that christianity is evil and wrong? \*\* Of course not. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![avalongod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@avalongod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/avalongod)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/325 "2003-02-20T22:26:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crafter\_Man \* > \*\*Of course not. :rolleyes: \*\* Agreed (with the rolled eyes). Kalishnikov’s question was rather silly and polemic. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/326 "2003-02-20T23:59:25Z")
**Crafter\_Man** , I’m really quite interested in what your answer to my question is. To save scrolling up, here it is again: > [@](#): > > I would like to know if you’re singling out homosexuality as immoral, or if you’re also teaching about other, more common and more provable (in Christian terms) sins such as adultery, divorce, envy, and hate. CJ ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/327 "2003-02-21T00:03:44Z")
**Crafter\_Man** , you’re allowed to teach your daughters that white is the best color for a human and that straight is the only way to go sexuality-wise. A debate about such is probably best suited, as **Mr Visible** said, for another thread. Incidentally, I talked to my history teacher today (the one I thought would probably be pleased at the idea of starting a Pride group at the school I go to now) and he tells me that when he was in high school here in the 80s there were exactly two non-het people he knew of (the way he says this inclines me to think that there could well have been more, but these were the two he knew of) in his class. One of them he still knows about, the other he does not. Basically what he said to me about the idea of starting a PRIDE group here is that while he’s with me personally, but professionally (he _just_ like two months ago moved down here after being away for 10 years or so) he’s still got to get some footing. I had anticipated he’d say that, so right now we’re trying to think up not-so-confrontational ways to say “Psst … hey, you? Might not be straight? Here are some resources for you to check out.” Any sort of help/guidance y’all could provide would be most welcome. I’m kinda going at this blind, but here’s my initial idea: I’m putting together a list of GLBT people … some of whom are rather well-known, some very much not so. The idea is, for those who recognize the names, to email an address I’ve not yet created (but will probably be something like [school acronym]PRIDE@netscape.net) with any questions or whatever if they happen to have any. And if people don’t know, again they can email. I think this is the least confrontational, yet safe and “out”, so to speak, thing I can do short of putting big pink triangles up. I don’t want to “let the bigots win”, so to speak, but at the same time I don’t want to have a big public meeting that might discourage the more shy or private from showing up. Also, email is anonymous and as such the saying goes “nobody on the internet knows you’re a dog”😉 Suggestions? Names of not-so-out GLBT people and _very_ out GLBT people? I don’t want to go being obscure but I’d also like to avoid getting “yeah dude theyre all fucking queer like you for putting that gay sheet up go away we don’t want you here”-type emails … at least not more than a few. Avoiding the bigots is actually kinda contrary to what I _want_ to do. I just don’t know quite how to accomplish it. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/328 "2003-02-21T00:41:50Z")
**cjhoworth** : I’ll probably regret this because I really do _not_ want to debate this. But since you’re pressing… we teach our children _many_ values, which include modes of acceptable behavior. We teach, for example, that theft is wrong, unprovoked violence is wrong, compassion is good, humility is good, hate is wrong, honesty is good, etc. We do not focus on homosexuality. BTW: I find it interesting that there are those who think that, because I believe homosexuality is a sin, I must also _hate_ homosexuals (as **musicguy** was implying). This is certainly not the case. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/329 "2003-02-21T00:45:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > \*\ ***Crafter\_Man** , you’re allowed to teach your daughters that white is the best color for a human and that straight is the only way to go sexuality-wise. \*\* O.K., but uhhh… I hope you’re not implying that I believe “white is the best color for a human.” And I’m sure my wife (who happens to be Chinese) would _strongly_ disagree… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/330 "2003-02-21T01:02:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crafter\_Man \* > \*\*We have two daughters (ages 4 and 5) and we _ **are** _ teaching them homosexuality is sinful and immoral. > > So here are question for you (strictly out of curiosity): > > 1. Are you tolerant of our decision? > 2. Would you support a law making it a crime for us to teach this to our children? \*\* Are you tolerant of my decision to tell my children, and anyone who’ll listen, that you’re a bigot? Would you support a law making it a crime for me to tell my children, and anyone who’ll listen, that you’re a bigot? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/331 "2003-02-21T01:21:35Z")
> [@](#): > > I believe homosexuality is a sin, I must also hate homosexuals (as musicguy was implying). This is certainly not the case. I’m working on a polite, friendly way to say, “Your relationship with your lover is an abomination unto God,” but I’m not coming up with anything. ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/332 "2003-02-21T02:04:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*Would you support a law making it a crime for me to tell my children, and anyone who’ll listen, that you’re a bigot? \*\* Well this explains **Crafter\_Man’s** reluctance to field questions. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/333 "2003-02-21T02:05:25Z")
My questions differ very little from **Crafter\_Man** ’s questions. If they offend him, he should consider his own questions more carefully. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/334 "2003-02-21T02:34:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*I’m working on a polite, friendly way to say, “Your relationship with your lover is an abomination unto God,” but I’m not coming up with anything. \*\* Well, you could start out by suggesting that a license from the state and a few words spoken by a minister do not constitute grounds to continue fornicating. After all, it’s my understanding that people who believe homosexual acts to be sinful are also quite firm on the idea that a covenanted marriage between two gay people licensed by the state and perhaps presided over by a minister who respects their love and commitment and desires to solemnize it, is not “really a marriage.” And that in essence describes theirs, too – two people who want church and state sanction to gratify their lusts. (If they insist that there’s a lot more to their marriage than the sex, your comeback is that there’s a lot more to yours than sex, too.) The interesting thing about this, to me, is (and this at long last ties it back into the OP) that straight kids, whose desire, both sexual and romantic, for the person they’re in love with, are restricted by rules they had no part in the making of, are an order of magnitude more aware that two gay people in love are in fact in love, not just horny for each other – because the situation is so close to their own. I won’t counsel patience – you know what fight you have to wage now and that now’s the time to do it – but take heart that 50 years from now, that awareness will have stuck, and the awareness factor will be much more widespread than today. **Crafter Man** , you are aware that as late as 25 years ago, the fact that you married someone of another race was grounds to condemn you and your wife in the eyes of many “respectable” people, are you not? And, presuming that whatever causes homosexual orientation strikes more or less at random (as it certainly appears to), there’s a 10-20% chance that one of your daughters may in fact turn out to be gay? What would you do if that happens? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/335 "2003-02-21T04:07:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crafter\_Man \* > O.K., but uhhh… I hope you’re not implying that I believe “white is the best color for a human.” And I’m sure my wife (who happens to be Chinese) would _strongly_ disagree… 😉 I’m not implying anything of the sort:) I was just wondering. I find it incredibly ironic that while you’re not teaching your kids that white is the best (which would lead them to think you were all inferior … you for marrying a non-white woman, them for being born of one and their mother for being one), you are teaching them that heterosexuality is the best. It would be really interesting to see what happens if one of your kids discovered one day that she was not straight. I wonder what you’d do then … and, more importantly, how she’d handle both the discovery and its clash with her upbringing of “straight is best!” However, further down that road is really another thread, and one which I’m sensing you’re rather loathe to start else you’d just have put a link to your own GD thread in this thread instead of the “brazen hijack”. ---
**Author:** ![Kalashnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/336 "2003-02-21T04:17:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by avalongod \* > \*\*Agreed (with the rolled eyes). Kalishnikov’s question was rather silly and polemic. \*\* Not at all, it was a hypothetical question. Just seeing if he was consistant. IIRC, he’s a patriot, and patriots are quite divided between those who want freedom for all, and those who only want freedom to be like them. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/337 "2003-02-21T11:50:20Z")
pun, can i have some clarification please? Are you going to put a list of names on a poster, with a sort of “interested? email [xxxPRIDE@xxx.net](mailto:xxxPRIDE@xxx.net)”. Or are you going to email these people individually with a “LGBT? email xxx for info” type message? Personally i can’t see anything confrontational with a few “LGBT student resources available at xxxx” posters or stickers, or even a mass email to the student body. Does your school have an LGBT officer? Maybe you could liaise with them about how to spread the word. Even if you don’t want to paper the entire school, perhaps a few leaflets/flyers left in the student counselling service offices or LGBT society rooms would be helpful? I’m not really sure what you’re up against, my college has an LGBT officer and society, a specific counsellour for sexuality issues and an annual Rainbow week with activites such as “Lesbian Lucheons” and free entry to Dublin’s gay clubs. Do you have any similar resources to work with? ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/338 "2003-02-21T15:40:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*My questions differ very little from **Crafter\_Man** ’s questions. If they offend him, he should consider his own questions more carefully. \*\* OK, let’s say he doesn’t support a law making it a crime for you to tell your children and anyone who’ll listen that he’s a bigot, which is reasonable to assume since he already stated he wouldn’t support such a law regarding teaching kids that christianity is evil. What point have you made? ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/339 "2003-02-21T18:07:34Z")
> [@](#): > > We have two daughters (ages 4 and 5) and we are teaching them homosexuality is sinful and immoral. > > So here are question for you (strictly out of curiosity): > > 1. Are you tolerant of our decision? > 2. Would you support a law making it a crime for us to teach this to our children? 1. I wouldn’t respect, support, or accept that decision in anyway, but of course I’d have to tolerate it. 2. I really wish no one dignified this with a response, negative or affirmative. It’s such a stupid question that could not have been prompted by anything said in this thread so far, and who are you to demand that people answer it? I’d like to know if you rape bunnies, considering what you teach your kids.\* > [@](#): > > I was just curious where the PC crowd stood on converting their beliefs into force. If you wanted to know what the “PC crowd” thinks, why don’t you ask them? They live at the North Pole, across the street from Santa. \*my point is that his question was just as non-sequitor and offensive as mine, in case you’re confused. ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378/340 "2003-02-21T19:40:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crafter\_Man \* > > \*\*BTW: I find it interesting that there are those who think that, because I believe homosexuality is a sin, I must also _hate_ homosexuals (as **musicguy** was implying). This is certainly not the case. \*\* Upon reflection, I should have used a different word than hate. I shouldn’t assume that you hate anyone. I apologize. Still doesn’t mean I agree with what you are doing but you probably already knew that. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-teens-a-debate/154378.md?page=18)