# "Gay" Used to Mean "Stupid" and the Offense Therein **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2001, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132 "2001-07-20T01:37:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/21 "2001-07-20T05:25:01Z")
:rolleyes: (That was for you, **Brite** , and just for you. There are other things I’d like to say, but this isn’t The Pit.) “That’s so _gay_” is an expression that developed from “gay” being synonymous with “homosexual.” The phrase is only used in a negative way. How could this be perceived as anything else but insulting? Esprix ---
**Author:** ![MrWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9f8e36/32.png) [@MrWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrWhy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/22 "2001-07-20T05:28:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vorfod \* > **So even though I see MrWhy’s pint…** My pint? Cool. Which bar are you at? I’ll be there in 5 minutes. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MrWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9f8e36/32.png) [@MrWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrWhy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/23 "2001-07-20T05:33:36Z")
I’ve spent the last couple of hours trying to explain why I think people should be given the benefit of the doubt, but damn it **Brite** , you’re making it awfully hard. ---
**Author:** ![vorfod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a87d85/32.png) [@vorfod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vorfod)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/24 "2001-07-20T06:06:51Z")
**MrWhy:** Damn Freudian slip!!! Not there yet - give me another hour though, and it’s a different story - roll on the week-end! **Brite:** Can’t agree with you. It always seems that when a member of a minority is offended by the use of a derogatory term, it’s rarely ever another member of that same minority that accuses them of pedantry - it’s a lot easier to get annoyed by someone complaining of bigotry against them when one never has had to live through that bigotry oneself. As for the “corruption” of words from their original meaning… Happens all the time. The language we speak is not static, it evolves. The fact that gay was “corrupted” by homosexuals themselves is notable because it is one of the very few words used to describe homosexuals that originally had a positive connotation. The rest, and the further “corruption” of those terms for derogatory purposes is not something that was instigated by homosexuals - and any term that has been “corrupted” by heterosexuals for derogatory purposes **is** going to be offensive, and you can’t expect it not to be seen as offensive. ---
**Author:** ![23skidoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/f04885/32.png) [@23skidoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/23skidoo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/25 "2001-07-20T06:08:34Z")
Darn! It seems like everything anyone says offends heterosexuals these days! BTW, the original usage of straight, before the Heterosexuals decided to corrupt it, meant uncurving, unbent, and direct. A “straight shot of whiskey” has nothing else mixed in. A “straight face” meant showing no emotion. A “straight” meant a poker hand where all cards are in succession. A “straight edge” was a ruler. Why does a heterosexual need to be called straight anyhow? Who came up with this term? What’s wrong with “breeder”? It’s not an insult until you apply it as such. You know, I can wander around for days and not find anyone using any derogatory term for heterosexuals and suddenly, on TV, some heterosexual is pissed off because someone used something that just might be slanderous towards them, but which no one would have even paid attention to had he not opened his big mouth about it. Then, they took over the term ‘straight.’ None of them asked me if they could, nor did they ask if any homosexual minded, they just took it. Now, if anyone uses the term “straight” around one, he gets pissed. I’m kind of getting tired of having to watch my words because various ‘rights’ groups have decided to alter their meanings and take offense if they mistake what I and others say, using such terms. ---
**Author:** ![ssj\_man2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ssj\_man2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ssj_man2k)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/26 "2001-07-20T06:31:32Z")
Me and my friends say gay all the time. I’m gay, and i don’t care. I know they don’t mean that homosexuals are stupid or wrong, it’s just part of our vocabulary. If you really get that offended, then you shouldn’t hang around people who use it. ---
**Author:** ![Bad\_Hat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f0a364/32.png) [@Bad\_Hat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bad_Hat)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/27 "2001-07-20T06:51:20Z")
One homo buddy of mine (who is a theatre director) was in conversation with one of his designers when the designer, out of dissatisfaction with some design element of the show, said “I dunno, i just think this is kinda gay…” At which point the director mock glared at his designer and said “um, no, if it was gay, it would have style.” I love that. Makes me laugh every time. It also bears mentioning that said director runs one of the preeminent gay oriented theatres in my part of the country. CJ ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/28 "2001-07-20T07:16:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brite \* > \*\*Then, they took over the term ‘gay.’ None of them asked me if they could, nor did they ask if any heterosexual minded, they just took it. \*\* My goodness. I had no idea herosexuals had sole legal possession of the English language. But I’ll be awaiting my divided check from Webster’s. \*\* > [@](#): > > They also stole the descriptive noun ‘Rainbow,’ which pissed off members of the Rainbow Coalition and around 1000 Internet users whose handles begin with ‘Rainbow.’ > \*\* They did that too?! Damn. I love that word. And they’ve taking it away from me!! Tell you what. Tell them if they bring it back, they can have my use of the word “marriage”. At any rate, my word origin dictionary says “gay” was used to mean sexually available or living an immoral lifestyle since the 18th century, and was usually applied to women. Only later did it become associated with homosexual, and at first pretty derogatorily, till they took it up as a point of pride in the 60’s and 70’s (much as they did with queer in the 80’s and 90’s.) So, there, there, they didn’t really steal it from you after all. Damn. I really had some intelligent and interesting things to say, particularly about “gay” vs. “gay” and “bastard” vs. “bastard” (speaking as a bastard in the original sense, I thought that was an interesting point) but Brite totally distracted me. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/29 "2001-07-20T07:45:30Z")
**MrWhy:** OK, I see you are probably indeed using the word in a different and milder sense. Please then take the warning that for North American speakers, the word “gay”, when not meaning either merry or homosexual, is used to mean “nasty”, and it is this usage that gay people find offensive. **Brite:** > [@](#): > > _John_ Queer? > _Homer_ Yeah, and that’s another thing! I resent you people using that word. That’s our word for making fun of you! We need it!! > > - _The Simpsons,_ “Homer Phobia” For further insight, please see [Cecil’s column on the word “gay”.](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_271b.html) And then go away. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/30 "2001-07-20T07:56:59Z")
And I in fact meant nothing offensive towards gay people. It was just something my peers said. I stopped saying it not out of respect but because it just wasn’t the cool way to say things any more. I’ve only recently heard that some people are in fact using that phrase again. I’m willing to them the benefit of the doubt that they don’t mean anything offensive by it. But in order to avoid giving others the wrong impression about me or offending other people I won’t use the phrase myself. Instead of saying “That’s so gay” I can say “That’s really lame” without offending or hurting anyone elses feelings. Marc Holy moly, did I just sound sensitive? ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/31 "2001-07-20T13:36:00Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by betenoir \* > Damn. I really had some intelligent and interesting things to say, particularly about “gay” vs. “gay” and “bastard” vs. “bastard” (speaking as a bastard in the original sense, I thought that was an interesting point) but Brite totally distracted me._\* Yes, shiny objects have that affect on me t… pan ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/32 "2001-07-20T14:20:11Z")
The first time I heard anything about the gays “stealing” the word “rainbow” was last year when a school in Hawaii dropped the word from its team mascot names citing the supposed homosexual reference. I think they call themselves “the Warriors” now, which I think says something about str8 male insecurity. For those who don’t know, the rainbow flag was adopted as a gay symbol in the early 1970s. I’m unaware of anyone, gay or str8, making a concerted effort to declare all things rainbow to be gay. If str8s want to drop their use of rainbow imagery because they think it might make someone else think they’re queer, then that’s on the str8s. I wonder, did Brite used to be Rainbow Brite, in tribute to that horrible doll? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/33 "2001-07-20T15:35:36Z")
I commented on this topic in the “Get A Life” thread, and thought, after reading the above, that maybe I’d been overly sensitive. **Mr. Why** makes some good points. The inability of the average person nowadays to distinguish between _Nig_\*\*\* and _Niggardly_ says something about the state of literacy in contemporary America, and what it says is not good. However: I’m not gay, but I sympathize and empathize with people who are “different” in various ways. I think how gays are treated is an indication of how tolerant our culture is generally of those whose lifestyles deviate from the norm. At any rate, the use of the word “gay” to mean “stupid”, “lame”, or “not cool at all” is unfortunately well established in teenspeak, and I’m not sure it even really means “homosexual” anymore. This usage is spreading even to those who used to be called “dorks” or “geeks”. Remember the old image of the studious “nerd”, with his shirt buttoned all the way up? My SD’s book had an entry to describe this person–“TBF”–which is short for “Top Button Fag”. WTF!! So yeah, I guess if “gay” means you never want to stop learning or that you work with computers, then I must be gay! ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/34 "2001-07-20T15:45:06Z")
Oh, man!! What’s this with subject headings getting cut off? I meant to type: **Peeked in stepdaughters “Teen Slang Dictionary”.** Was the problem that I tried to use quotes? ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/35 "2001-07-20T17:54:12Z")
**betenoir** said: > [@](#): > > I had no idea **herosexuals** had sole legal possession of the English language. I like this word. “Gay or straight, you too can be a hero in the sack. C’mon. Be a Herosexual.” Great band name, too. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/36 "2001-07-20T18:01:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > The first time I heard anything about the gays “stealing” the word “rainbow” was last year when a school in Hawaii dropped the word from its team mascot names citing the supposed homosexual reference. I think they call themselves “the Warriors” now, which I think says something about **str8** male insecurity. > > For those who don’t know, the rainbow flag was adopted as a gay symbol in the early 1970s. I’m unaware of anyone, gay or **str8** , making a concerted effort to declare all things rainbow to be gay. If **str8s** want to drop their use of rainbow imagery because they think it might make someone else think they’re queer, then that’s on the **str8s.** > > I wonder, did Brite used to be Rainbow Brite, in tribute to that horrible doll? When you go fishing what do you use lures or b8? What do you prefer on your pool table, felt or sl8? I love Frosted Flakes, they’re ggggrrrrrrrr8! I’m curious as to whether or not the number 8 has replaced the “ait” sound in the english language. Is this how all the cool people spell str8 and they just forgot to tell me or is this some sort of subtle protest? I think it is pretty clear that a good amount of homosexual activist have made sure the rainbow is associated with them. I say that not as an accusation of sinister behavior but simply as a statement of fact. Have you ever seen automobiles with little rainbow bumper stickers or decals? At Disney I saw quite a few gay couples with little rainbows on their backpacks. It seems reasonable to change the name of the Rainbow Warriors to the Warriors. At any rate ignoring any gay symbolism no sports team needs to be known as the rainbow anything. You pick cool animals or groups of people like cougers, sharks, pirates, or birds of prey. Personally when I hear Rainbow Warrior I think of Green Peace. And who the hell want’s to be associated with that bunch of freaks? Marc ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/37 "2001-07-20T18:09:04Z")
**Mr. Why** replied to **CFrog** : \*“Anyway, that’s mighty white of you to clarify. And I don’t mean that in a racist way or anything, regardless of the roots of the saying.” I must say, I’ve never heard that expression before. Where does it come from?\* Are you serious, Mr. Why, or are you whooshing me? Expressions like “that’s mighty white of you”, “you’re a white man”, etc., are old-fashioned terms of compliment implying integrity and trustworthiness. Yes, they’re derived from nineteenth-century white racism that attempted to portray whites as upright and noble and other races as morally inferior. Yes, they’re still occasionally used. Yes, they’re offensive because of their racist implications, even if you’re using them just as a generic compliment and not to imply racial superiority. Sometimes, it **is** possible to “detoxify” a bigoted insult so that you lose the bigotry and just keep the insult: consider the use of the term “lame” to mean the same thing that some people are trying to defend the use of the term “gay” to mean—stupid, dumb, poorly done, etc. Physically handicapped people aren’t complaining about that one (though I’d probably still bite my tongue if I said it in front of somebody in a wheelchair), mostly because they don’t use “lame” as a descriptive term for themselves anymore. Since gay people (and most of the rest of us too) still use “gay” to mean homosexual without any negative connotations, however, I agree that you shouldn’t expect to be able to use “gay” for “dumb” and not offend anyone. (And yes, **Marc** , you did sound sensitive. I bet you quit drop-kicking kittens, too. ;)) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/38 "2001-07-20T18:11:26Z")
…I didn’t see your last post when I wrote that. You’re back to normal. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/39 "2001-07-20T18:47:54Z")
> [@](#): > > When you go fishing what do you use lures or b8? I’m a vegetarian. I don’t murder fish either for food or for sport. > [@](#): > > What do you prefer on your pool table, felt or sl8? I don’t play pool. > [@](#): > > I love Frosted Flakes, they’re ggggrrrrrrrr8! Don’t care for them myself. Too sweet, rots your teeth. > [@](#): > > I’m curious as to whether or not the number 8 has replaced the “ait” sound in the english language. Is this how all the cool people spell str8 and they just forgot to tell me or is this some sort of subtle protest? Oh yeah, all the cool people are doing it now! Didn’t you get the memo? The memo said it was going out to all the cool people. Oh…sorry… Don’t you have anything else in your life to get bunged about other than whether someone types “str8” as message board shorthand? As for “stealing” the rainbow, I seem to see rainbow striped crap in abundance in all walks of life. I don’t see any labels on it that says “gay only.” If someone’s afraid of the rainbow image because they think they might be mistaken for gay, I have no sympathy, as there’s nothing wrong with being gay. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132/40 "2001-07-20T19:11:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\* > > Don’t you have anything else in your life to get bunged about other than whether someone types “str8” as message board shorthand? \*\* Damn, I must be out of the loop because I don’t know how one feels when they are bunged. I was actually curious as to your use of the letter 8. In general the only people I see type “str8” are the same people who type U R to mean you are. I thought maybe in this case it had some signifigance. > [@](#): > > \*\* > As for “stealing” the rainbow, I seem to see rainbow striped crap in abundance in all walks of life. I don’t see any labels on it that says “gay only.” If someone’s afraid of the rainbow image because they think they might be mistaken for gay, I have no sympathy, as there’s nothing wrong with being gay. \*\* I never said the rainbow was stolen by anybody. I don’t see any labels on pink triangles that say gay only. I don’t see any labels on fish saying christians only. However those symbols are indentified with certain groups. I’m not a christian so I wouldn’t want a little fishy on my automobile. It doesn’t mean I’m afraid of the fish or that I think being a christian is wrong. I don’t know where you’re from but I don’t see rainbows everywhere I go. Now if I see a picture of a rainbow I don’t automatically think “Hey, that’s gay!” But if it is on a bumper sticker or on a backpack I take that as a way for someone to identify themselves as homosexual. And before you jump on my back I’m with you in thinking that there’s nothing wrong with being gay. Marc There’s lots of colors in the homo rainbow. Don’t be afraid to let your colors shiiiiiiiiine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-used-to-mean-stupid-and-the-offense-therein/73132.md?page=3)