# Gay **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2008, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay/472950 "2008-11-16T03:03:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay/472950/1 "2008-11-16T03:03:01Z")
It wasn’t until perhaps the late sixties when the word “gay” meaning homosexual came into vogue in my world. One didn’t say a group of macho men had a gay time when they were having fun. It certainly was said about women and children. So for a long time I just considered the word as pejorative as any other word for homosexual. Implication? Not being real men. Lesbians, Bisexuals, and Transgendered are all “scientific” words that are impossible to imply insult with. We don’t talk about the HLBT community. Why are homosexuals so comfortable with the word? ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay/472950/2 "2008-11-16T03:13:28Z")
Because they’re happy with themselves as they are? Not a snark. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay/472950/3 "2008-11-16T03:24:20Z")
Beats me. Somebody picked it for me. It’s not my favorite word, but I guess it’s better than queer or fag or homo. Gay has been tainted though. We should probably start looking for a new word, preferably one-syllable. In fact, in an act of turnabout, from henceforth I propose gay should replaced by cool. “Wow, that guy is totally cool.” “Oh, man, that shirt you’re wearing is totally cool.” “You two guys seem awfully close, you’re not cool are you?” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay/472950/4 "2008-11-16T03:31:05Z")
Probably because they coined the usage, themselves, and it only became pejorative when people outside that group began to use it with the understanding that homosexuality was shameful or easily mocked. From the O.E.D.: > [@](#): > > **1941** G. LEGMAN _Lang. Homosexuality_ in G. W. Henry _Sex Variants_ II. 1167 _Gay_, an adjective used almost exclusively by homosexuals to denote homosexuality, sexual attractiveness, promiscuity..or lack of restraint, in a person, place, or party. Often given the French spelling, _gai_ or _gaie_ by (or in burlesque of) cultured homosexuals of both sexes. ETA: Legman’s cited work was The fake revolt, published in 1967. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay/472950/5 "2008-11-16T05:05:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Lesbians, Bisexuals, and Transgendered are all “scientific” words that are impossible to imply insult with. “Bisexual” and “transgendered” could be considered scientific (as could “homosexual”), but “lesbian” basically just means “having the same sexual orientation as a particular famous inhabitant of the isle of Lesbos”. And if by “HLBT”, you mean “Homosexual, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered”, the term would never catch on because of its redundancy. Gay men and lesbian women are both homosexual, so you’d just say “HBT”. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay/472950/6 "2008-11-17T01:17:02Z")
The absolute best answer to the “homosexual”/“gay” question (in terms of terminology) that I’ve ever seen was produced by Dan Kirk, consultant in Sacramento, gay advocate, and sometime author of fiction, in a story called “Doing It Right.” The scenario is that the viewpoint character, Davey, is the son of the incumbent Senator from California running for reelection. He is also gay and in a committed relationship with Brian, and has recently been publicly outed by his father’s political opponents. The family is being interviewed by Barbara Walters in this excerpt: > [@](#): > > “Davey, for the past few weeks a photo of you and the young man sitting next to you has been creating quite a stir in your father’s campaign for the Senate.” Barbara stated, looking me in the eye and pitching her hardest fastball right over the plate. > > “Yes, it has.” I said somberly. > > “You’re homosexual.” She stated without emotion. > > “I’m gay, yes.” I countered and she cocked her head to the side. > > “You say that as if there’s a difference.” She replied. > > “There is.” I answered as I reached over and took Brian’s hand gently into mine, raising our joined hands to rest on my knee where the camera could see them. I had started my swing, and was going to do my best to hit it over the center field wall and into the upper deck. “The word ‘homosexual’ refers to an act of just sex. It’s used to refer to someone who has sex with a person of the same gender. As such, it does fit as a descriptor, but it’s not who I am, it’s not the center of my being. When I use the word ‘gay’, I use it in a broader context. I use it to mean I am someone who is attracted to a person of the same gender. More importantly, it describes that I choose to acknowledge how God made me and to live my life in a way that I believe he would approve. This man next to me is my partner, Brian. I love him with all my heart, and God willing, I’ll grow old with him and love him more than I do today. Barbara, people who don’t like gays would rather stick to the phrase ‘homosexual’ because that helps them keep the focus on just a sex act, not the complete picture of our lives as gay people.” > _(Copyright 2006 by Daniel R. Kirk Jr./“DKStories” – quoted here with author’s consent as fair use for educational purposes)_ ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay/472950/7 "2008-11-17T01:22:26Z")
[Cecil answers the question](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/517/how-did-gay-come-to-mean-homosexual) ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay/472950/8 "2008-11-17T23:42:24Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Lesbians, Bisexuals, and Transgendered are all “scientific” words that are impossible to imply insult with. You might be surprised. “Lesbian” certainly is used to imply insult, e.g. “What’s the matter sweet cheeks, are you a LESBIAN or something?” > [@](#): > > _Why are homosexuals so comfortable with the word?_ In addition to the reasons already given, “gay” is a lot shorter and less clinical sounding than “homosexual”. In ordinary conversation “bisexual” is often shortened to “bi” for similar reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay/472950/9 "2008-11-18T01:03:11Z")
Takes too long to say, plus homo has been picked up as a general slur. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay/472950/10 "2008-11-18T01:45:50Z")
My very proper Irish mother-in-law once commented that the word gay had, regrettably, been lost to general usage, as in ‘we had a gay time at the picnic’, by it’s newer association with homosexuality. I commented that while that may be true, we didn’t have to have ‘Sodomite Pride Day’, so it was probably worth it. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay/472950/11 "2008-11-18T23:26:09Z")
It’s partially a generational thing. I’m of the generation that came out roughly in the '60s to '70s, the “Stonewall” generation. The older generation, most of whom never came out at all, used the word “gay” as a sort of secret code, as in “Oh, Mary was so gay at the party, going on and on about her escapades on the Rivierra, with that adorable sailor from North Africa.” Think Noel Coward. There was an unmistakable homosexuality about the word, but it also had the original connotation as something light-hearted and not to be taken too seriously. When my generation took the word and publicly politicized it, turned it into something \*to be taken seriously, \*the older generation had a lot of difficulty making the transition. They mourned the loss of that word as a “wink-wink” code word, and considered our usage as airing of dirty laundry. It made them very uncomfortable. Fast-forward a couple of decades, when young people started using the word “queer.” People in my generation were slow to embrace it (we eventually did), since for us it had such negative connotations. Which is exactly why the kids loved to use it as a very political in-your-face label. But I don’t see “queer” or even “LGBT” replacing “gay” any time soon. It’s become too mainstream. As far as “homosexual” is concerned, I consider it an adjective, rather than a noun. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay/472950/12 "2008-11-19T00:57:01Z")
Why are “urban” blacks comfortable calling each other “nigga”? To use a much less extreme example, why do us technophiles proudly wear our nerd/geek badge? It’s reclaimed language, it gives a sense of “mastery.” The most surefire way to get rid of bullies in middle school is to not care when they make fun of you, you can take this a step further by agreeing with them. If you extend this to society “oh, yeah, I AM gay, you’re SO right.” By accepting it as a descriptor and not getting offended the word loses its power to act in its intended purpose (offense), so they now have POWER over the word, and the more they use it in a nonchalant, non-offensive, descriptive manner the less ways people have to hurt them, and on occasion the more accepted the things it’s describing can become. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay/472950/13 "2008-11-19T03:00:22Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Why are “urban” blacks comfortable calling each other “nigga”? To use a much less extreme example, why do us technophiles proudly wear our nerd/geek badge? It’s reclaimed language, it gives a sense of “mastery.” The most surefire way to get rid of bullies in middle school is to not care when they make fun of you, you can take this a step further by agreeing with them. If you extend this to society “oh, yeah, I AM gay, you’re SO right.” By accepting it as a descriptor and not getting offended the word loses its power to act in its intended purpose (offense), so they now have POWER over the word, and the more they use it in a nonchalant, non-offensive, descriptive manner the less ways people have to hurt them, and on occasion the more accepted the things it’s describing can become. Well, that’s true for “queer,” but not “gay,” which never had a negative connotation until recently. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay/472950/14 "2008-11-19T03:36:00Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Well, that’s true for “queer,” but not “gay,” which never had a negative connotation until recently. A quote from my then 11-year-old honorary grandson, about a party he did not have a good time at… “And the girls wanted to play kissing games! Kissing girls is so **gay**!!!” 😃 (I managed not to crack up untl I was out of his earshot. His mother was trying hard to keep a straight face.) ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay/472950/15 "2008-11-19T03:38:50Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > “And the girls wanted to play kissing games! Kissing girls is so **gay**!!!” That’s cute. Kids get big credit.