# Gays in military is worse problem than lack of Arabic linguists, apparantly
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [November 14, 2002, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774 "2002-11-14T22:57:33Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2002, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/1 "2002-11-14T22:57:33Z")
[http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=536&e=4&cid=536&u=/ap/20021114/ap\_on\_re\_us/gay\_military\_linguists](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=536&e=4&cid=536&u=/ap/20021114/ap_on_re_us/gay_military_linguists)
> [@](#):
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> Nine Army linguists, including six trained to speak Arabic, have been dismissed from the military because they are gay.
>
> The soldiers’ dismissals come at a time when the military is facing a critical shortage of translators and interpreters for the war on terrorism.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2002, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/2 "2002-11-14T23:11:57Z")
Well, yeah. No suprise there. The military has been discharging soldiers and sailors with special skills or special training because they were gay for a long time.
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### Author:  [@cher3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cher3)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2002, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/3 "2002-11-14T23:20:48Z")
I’m no fan of the policy, but the seven who told their superiors they were gay pretty much left them no choice but dismissal.
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### Author:  [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2002, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/4 "2002-11-14T23:25:08Z")
Man, that’s just fucking stupid.
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### Author:  [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2002, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/5 "2002-11-14T23:41:32Z")
And with that landmark decision the US Army zooms into the …
18th century? The only thing the article _doesn’t_ say is whether or not the discharge was honorable or not. I’m guessing the latter.
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### Author:  [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2002, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/6 "2002-11-14T23:47:32Z")
They’re still hung up about that whole “In The Navy” thing that the Village People did.
God damn, but there’s an awful lot of idiocy in the world.
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### Author:  [@Hamadryad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamadryad)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2002, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/7 "2002-11-15T00:00:41Z")
If you read Conduct Unbecoming by Randy Shilts, you’ll find that during the Gulf war, the armed forces were handicapped by the fact that they had discharged an awful lot of excellent Middle-Eastern linguists…because they were gay.
So apparently there’s precedent. U-S-A! U-S-A!!
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### Author:  [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2002, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/8 "2002-11-15T00:01:22Z")
Who knew we could be such cunning linguists?
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### Author:  [@Mac\_Guffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mac_Guffin)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2002, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/9 "2002-11-15T01:09:58Z")
Here is a thought. If you were an arabic speaking military translator, looking at being sent to Iraq when Shrub’s war goes down, and the thought of choking on poisin gas was making you a little nervous, How could you get out of serving?
Now consider **cher3** ’s post.
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### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2002, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/10 "2002-11-15T01:17:23Z")
Gee, I guess the military’s policies on homosexuality aren’t explicit enough?
I’m not saying that they deserved it, but they knew the deal up front, so what’s with this recrimination stuff? This is old news, rehashed over and over again with no satisfctory solution yet and none forthcoming.
The rules aren’t gonna change anytime soon, folks. I think they’re stupid, but that’s the way it is.
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2002, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/11 "2002-11-15T01:28:25Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by MrVisible \*
> \*\*Who knew we could be such cunning linguists? \*\*
_groan_
You know, that is really, REALLY bad! 😛
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### Author:  [@kevja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevja)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2002, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/12 "2002-11-15T02:11:51Z")
It doesn’t seem right to me. But it happens all the time in civilian life, but it’s more discreet. The military is just more upfront about it.
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### Author:  [@Rossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rossarian)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2002, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/13 "2002-11-15T02:51:08Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by iampunha \*
> \*\*And with that landmark decision the US Army zooms into the …
>
> 18th century? \*\*
Congress makes the laws, the military carries them out. Some people in the military favor it, some don’t, but it’s irrelevant either way.
As mentioned, the seven who admitted being homosexual to their superiors guaranteed their own discharge. They apparently wanted out, or they wouldn’t have done it.
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### Author:  [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2002, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/14 "2002-11-15T06:08:44Z")
Bullshit. The brass has a choice.
[http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/877/877\_dontgo.asp](http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/877/877_dontgo.asp)
[quote]
But after years of witnessing homophobic slurs and threats—including hearing “officers saying that gays should be imprisoned…shot and…tortured”—Nguyen no longer felt safe and concluded he had no choice but to get out.
In his letter he detailed his experiences and expressed his fear that by staying closeted in the military he would always be “at risk of investigation, involuntary discharge, and even criminal prosecution.” Reluctantly, he requested to be discharged.
The request, to Nguyen’s surprise, was denied. A letter from his commanding officer explained that Nguyen’s simply stating his sexual orientation, without providing evidence that he is likely to engage in “homosexual acts,” did not constitute a reason for separation.
[quote]
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### Author:  [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2002, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/15 "2002-11-15T06:41:18Z")
Hmmmm… the article makes it appear that a failure to dismiss means that the brass thinks you’re lying about your orientation in order to avoid service:
> [@](#):
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> Lt. Col. T.L. Miller said that homosexual conduct is grounds for separation only if the commanding officer has received “credible evidence of such conduct.”
Kafka is laughing.
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### Author:  [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2002, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/16 "2002-11-15T09:06:27Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \*
> I’m not saying that they deserved it, but they knew the deal up front, so what’s with this recrimination stuff?
Maybe, I dunno, the fact that it’s utter bullshit?
> [@](#):
>
> This is old news, rehashed over and over again with no satisfctory solution yet and none forthcoming.
How did the armed forces respond to forced desegregation? Why not just enact that plan again? Granted it won’t be easy in the beginning, but what the hell is?
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### Author:  [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2002, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/17 "2002-11-15T10:39:10Z")
Why won’t they allow Gays in the military?
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2002, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/18 "2002-11-15T10:51:02Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by iampunha \*
> \*\*And with that landmark decision the US Army zooms into the …
>
> 18th century? The only thing the article _doesn’t_ say is whether or not the discharge was honorable or not. I’m guessing the latter. \*\*
General discharge is also an option and doesn’t carry the stigma of a dishonorable discharge.
Marc
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2002, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/19 "2002-11-15T11:19:50Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \*
> Gee, I guess the military’s policies on homosexuality aren’t explicit enough?
No, they’re sufficiently explicit.
> [@](#):
>
> I’m not saying that they deserved it, but they knew the deal up front, so what’s with this recrimination stuff?
At least judging from the thread title, this seems to be about the military shooting itself in the foot with _its_ decision, not about injustice against gays.
Six Arabic translators, two Korean translators (North Korea is a charter Axis of Evil member, and now with nukes), and one Chinese translator. We might need some of those guys.
What’s even scarier is this part:
> [@](#):
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> After their discharges, Gamble and Hicks applied for other federal jobs where they could use their language skills in the war on terrorism, but neither was hired, Gamble said.
Don’t tell me the CIA, NSA, etc. aren’t short of people who speak Arabic and Korean. By now, they should be well over the notion that being gay is in and of itself a security risk. You can’t blackmail someone over something they’re not keeping as a secret.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2002, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/20 "2002-11-15T11:23:53Z")
I’m surprised that you’re suprised that the consideration is not ethics, but politics.
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