# Gays in military is worse problem than lack of Arabic linguists, apparantly **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2002, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774 "2002-11-14T22:57:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/141 "2002-11-16T22:09:59Z")
Um, here’s a thought - what about all of the military personnel who were LGBT and _successfully_ had a worthwhile, successful, rewarding career? It’s patently obvious that it is entirely possible to have LGBT military personnel without any problems. I say, let whoever wants to join, join - and kick them out after they’ve proven they can’t do the job. But then, that would make sense. Dur. :rolleyes: Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/142 "2002-11-17T00:18:45Z")
What I really want to know – and this is a point which has been consistently ignored throughout this debate – is how these dismissals will affect our military gaydar capability. Now more than ever, we cannot afford to relax our vigilance in this vital area of national security. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/143 "2002-11-17T00:29:45Z")
**jr8** , are you suggesting there’s a Gaydar Gap? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/144 "2002-11-17T00:33:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\ ***jr8** , are you suggesting there’s a Gaydar Gap? \*\* Absolutely. Maybe we need a Department of Homoland Security. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/145 "2002-11-17T01:18:28Z")
> [@](#): > > It doesn’t have to do with attraction, but with modesty. I’ll do it, if necessary, but I won’t enjoy it, and I would think twice (even if I were somehow magically disposed to enter the military) before entering any organization that required me to do so. I don’t understand why some people claim to be too “modest” tp shower publicly. Have none of you ever been to a gym? During my college years (1979-1983), I worked summers as a waiter in Yellowstone National Park. On my off time, I would get nekkid along with the rest of my fellow early 20-somethings, male and female, and go hotpotting, usually in the Gardiner River between Mammoth Hot Springs and Gardiner, MT. In my fraternity house (Phi Gamma Delta, Hanover College), all the guys shared one large shower stall. And in every gym I’ve ever been in, there was an accepted level of public nudity in the locker room. And I can honestly say, as a card-carrying homo, that I have never–OK, rarely-- looked at anyone in a gym lasciviously because that’s not what gyms are for. Nudity is merely flesh; sex–for adults, that is–is a matter of the mind, not merely the body. In any event, if gay people are thrown out of the military for fear they might prove too great a distraction to straight men, then I suggest that women be banned from the military, too. I am saddened that **Airman Doors** has such a poor opinion of me and other gay men, that he thinks we are a liabililty to military preparedness. For shame. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/146 "2002-11-17T02:34:34Z")
\*\*LaurAnge wrote: You’re absolutely right, they aren’t necessarily. But there is the potential, same as if a man and a woman had to shower together.\*\* If that’s the case, we ought to just throw **EVERYONE** in jail now and be done with it. That guy walking down the street? He MIGHT rob a bank. The woman in the checkout line? She MIGHT physically abuse her children. That college professor? He MIGHT crack under pressure and blow away a whole classroom. That judge behind the bench? She MIGHT leap over her desk and throttle the defendent. That gay guy in the shower? He MIGHT look at fellow soldier’s ass and think “NICE” !! If we’re talking about _IFs_, _MIGHTs_ and _MAYBEs_ aren’t we really talking about THOUGHT crimes? Simply thinking something (or even MAYBE thinking of something) has now turned into a crime or punishable offense? ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/147 "2002-11-17T02:41:40Z")
Giving it some thought, this thread needs to be locked and deleted for reasons of National Security! We’ve given away the secret to defeating American troops if (or more likely when) they invade Iraq. All Iraq has to do is line its borders with communal shower stalls and fill them with gay men. Our hardy troops, taking one look at those nelly queens showering and potenitally oogling them will cause a massive panic and send out men scurrying back home, forever questioning their manhood! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/148 "2002-11-17T03:40:31Z")
Really, the anti-gays-in-the-military contingent has got to come up with something better than the showers already. It’s just silly. Is that really the best they can do? ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/149 "2002-11-17T03:54:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > \*\*Yes. That would be a good thing. It would serve many ends. The Cold War is over. Done. Kaput. Our military should be smaller. Not pre-WWII smaller, but drastically downsized. \*\* Assertions that could only be made by someone who has no clue about the current status of the military manpower situation or a grasp on the diffuse nature of very real, very serious threats against US security worldwide. We need a military that is large enough and well-supplied enough to face multiple threats on multiple fronts at once. Right now we have that – kinda sorta almost. Downscaling is the last thing we need to think about. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > **If a blow for equality also forces out the filthy, bigotted vermin who are supporting the ban on gays, that could lead to better pay for our soldiers who have the decency to be on the right side of this issue (the only side any moral person can be on with regards to this issue), and a smaller military. Everyone wins.** Wow. Do you ever wish for a splash of color in that black and white world of yours? Filthy, bigotted vermin? Whew, step right up ladies and gentlemen and watch the overstatements fly! Is **AirmanDoors** filthy biggotted vermin? Am I? Because as much as I would like to see a completely open policy in the military with regard to soldiers’ sexuality, I recognize that it’s not going to happen right now or any time in the near future. I want it to happen, but I want it to be realistic, and I don’t want to see – especially not now when we’re facing threats we’ve never faced before – our military torn apart when it is forced into something that it isn’t prepared for. And it’s not just because the military is full of bigots that it’s not prepared for open integration of gays, it’s also – largely, even – because the military is a fairly good representation of our society at large, and _our society does not openly accept the integration – nay, the very existence – of gays_. This is a society in which it is far more rare than common that gays are afforded the most basic protections. When your homosexuality gets you fired or evicted, in most parts of the country there’s no legal recourse for you because it’s not illegal. This is a society in which homosexuals have had their children taken from them on the grounds that being gay in and of itself made them unfit. This is a society where we not only refuse to extend legal protection or recognition of gay relationships which is analogous to hetero relationships, we actually have seen widespread voter acceptance of [referenda making it impoosible to do so](http://sos.state.nv.us/nvelection/2002_bq/bq2.htm). This is a society where (even in cities with large gay populations and laws protecting gays from many forms of discrimination) gay people must still fear harassment and even assault when out in public – and not even when with their friends and partners, but simply for LWG - living while gay. For all of the lip service we pay to tolerance and diversity and everybody getting along, and as quickly as almost everyone will join in the cries of outrage and condemnation after a high profile incident like Matt Shepherd’s murder, as a society we have a long, long way to go until homosexuals are even close to being on par with the rest of the minorities in this country – let alone on par, period. If we want to see a change in military policy, then we need to become far more serious about change in society overall. That means getting into the hearts and minds of people, and convincing our more stubborn citizens that equal rights aren’t special rights, and that discriminating against people because of the way that they were born is never excusable – nor does refraining from discrimination mean that they “approve” of anything other than every individual’s right to exist in peace so long as they aren’t infringing on anyone else’s rights. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/150 "2002-11-17T03:59:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freyr \* > \*\* > All Iraq has to do is line its borders with communal shower stalls and fill them with gay men. Our hardy troops, taking one look at those nelly queens showering and potenitally oogling them will cause a massive panic and send out men scurrying back home, forever questioning their manhood! \*\* Hopefully our military is feverishing working on plans for “The Bridge On The River Queer” to go over and bypass this threat. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/151 "2002-11-17T07:18:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tlw \* > \*\* I want it to happen, but I want it to be realistic, and I don’t want to see – especially not now when we’re facing threats we’ve never faced before – our military torn apart when it is forced into something that it isn’t prepared for. \*\* Does anyone actually believe the Armed Forces of the United States would be torn apart by dropping the ban on gay soldiers? I don’t believe that. I’d like to give the average soldier a little more credit for her/his professionalism and dedication. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/152 "2002-11-17T07:29:28Z")
Anyone who thinks the US Armed Services would curl up and die if queers were allowed to serve is nothing more than a filthy bigot trying desperately to find a notch to which to secure thier bigotry. Every decent country in the modern world has already done this – and many have extended other necessary . If America doesn’t follow suit then the Bill of Rights is a lie, the Constitution is horseshit, and the American dream is nothing but a facade. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/153 "2002-11-17T07:35:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > If America doesn’t follow suit then the Bill of Rights is a lie, the Constitution is horseshit, and the American dream is nothing but a facade. You know, I don’t always agree with how you state everything, **Kirk** , but this is a point where I am fully, completely in agreement with you. The idea that this country is a paragon of human rights is obsolete. What we’re asking for is simple; we want to be treated like everyone else under the law. And until that happens, “the Bill of Rights is a lie, the Constitution is horseshit, and the American dream is nothing but a facade.” ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/154 "2002-11-17T08:57:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > “Forced integration”? I don’t think anyone is suggesting every unit have a \*\*Homo Quota. \*\* [Band name!](http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/bandnames.adp) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/155 "2002-11-17T11:55:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freyr \* > \*\*Giving it some thought, this thread needs to be locked and deleted for reasons of National Security! > > We’ve given away the secret to defeating American troops if (or more likely when) they invade Iraq. > > All Iraq has to do is line its borders with communal shower stalls and fill them with gay men. Our hardy troops, taking one look at those nelly queens showering and potenitally oogling them will cause a massive panic and send out men scurrying back home, forever questioning their manhood! \*\* Eddie Izzard suggested the opposite approach: > [@](#): > > So! I didn’t join the army, as you might have noticed… And um, and uh, yeah, cause there’s not much makeup in the army, is there? No? They only have that nighttime look, and that’s a bit slapdash, isn’t it? That’s a bit… And they look a mess. And so you can’t join, even though the American armed forces have a distinct policy of “don’t ask, don’t tell” towards the alternative sexualities. If you’re a bloke wearing a lot of makeup, you know, uh, I don’t think they need to ask, really. And so you can’t join. They go, “No, no, you can’t. It’s – wrong shade of lipstick for the army, I’m afraid…” > > And they’re missing a huge opportunity here cause we all know one of the main elements of attack is the element of surprise. So what could be more surprising than the 1st Battalion Transvestite Brigade? Airborne wing – the airborne wing parachuting into dangerous areas with fantastic makeup! And a fantastic gun. And the opposing forces going, “Fuckinell, look at these guys. Hey… Suckaaas. They’ve got guns! They’ve got guns! Jesus, wha – they’ve got guns!” Ahhh, bugger. I was so surprised. Were you surprised? I was surprised. Okay, yes, I know there’s a difference between transvestites and homosexuals, but just _go with the joke_ for the moment, people… ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/156 "2002-11-17T15:32:27Z")
And of course Maggie Cassella: > [@](#): > > If they’re so worried about gays in the military, why not just separate them? Separate platoons for gay men and lesbians. _It’s a brilliant strategy!_ Separate platoons. > > First you send in the lesbian platoon. > > _YAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!! RAPISTS PATRIARCHY YOU’RE GONNA DIE!!_ > > War’s over, send in the gay men to clean up. “Oh my god, look at this mess! Look at this building, you call that architecture? Burn it down, we’ll say the lesbians did it.” ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/157 "2002-11-18T17:18:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*Does anyone actually believe the Armed Forces of the United States would be torn apart by dropping the ban on gay soldiers? I don’t believe that. I’d like to give the average soldier a little more credit for her/his professionalism and dedication. \*\* I hope you are right, but aren’t the majority of servicemen uneducated? I suspect that there will indeed be a lot of problems bringing gays into the military, but still the bullet must be bit in the name of the equal rights and freedom the armed forces are supposed to be fighting for. ---
**Author:** ![Mac\_Guffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mac\_Guffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mac_Guffin)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/158 "2002-11-18T17:49:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\*I hope you are right, but aren’t the majority of servicemen uneducated? I suspect that there will indeed be a lot of problems bringing gays into the military, but still the bullet must be bit in the name of the equal rights and freedom the armed forces are supposed to be fighting for. \*\* A majority of servicemen are UNEDUCATED? I would surely love a cite for that insane allegation. A bunch of drooling morons, all of whom are expected to operate advanced technology, such as tanks and other advanced battle vehicles, targeting hardware, aircraft, radar, sonar, submarines, battlefield communications gear, as well as learn tactics, linguistics, ballistics, cartography, and on and on. The days of the uneducated grunt are far since long past. The question here isn’t whether or not the ban is correct, but if people are using the ban as a means for removing themselves from potential harm. With war impending with Iraq, suddenly a dearth of Arabic speaking military linguists turn up gay? Sure they are. Just like Kilinger was gay on M_A_S_H_. The ban on gays in the military should be removed if for no other reason then to prevent cowards from using it as a way to escape their obligations to the military. Those linguists were trained with your tax dollars, and now they are free to use that training in the private sector. How much tax money did we lose in their training? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/159 "2002-11-18T18:07:36Z")
I was asking, not stating. Notice that thing at the end of my sentence? It’s called a “question mark”. And I never stated nor implied that undeducated = drooling moron. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774/160 "2002-11-18T18:17:30Z")
Besides, it could argued that learning to operate all that equipment is more “training” than “education”. Do you believe that military training results in the same lessening of bigotry than, say, a college education? Or do you deny that education is a factor at all in whether someone is bigoted or not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-in-military-is-worse-problem-than-lack-of-arabic-linguists-apparantly/136774.md?page=9)