# Gays now excluded from Catholic priesthood -- WTnonF? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614 "2005-12-01T20:41:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/1 "2005-12-01T20:41:57Z")
The Vatican recently decreed that homosexuals cannot be considered for the priesthood. (The American bishops are interpreting this liberally if not heretically – see [http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/11/29/MNGPVFVI531.DTL](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/11/29/MNGPVFVI531.DTL) – but never mind that.) What’s going on here? IANAC, but I know Catholic priests are supposed to be celibate. So if a priest keeps his vow of chastity, what difference does it make what kind of fleshly temptations he’s resisting? ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/2 "2005-12-01T20:51:29Z")
Yeah I don’t understand this either. Catholics think that homosexuality is a choice, right? So if a priest chooses to be celebate, isn’t he then choosing not to be homosexual from the catholic point of view? ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/3 "2005-12-01T20:53:02Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > Catholics think that homosexuality is a choice, right? By Catholics I of course mean the Church. I’m sure there are many individual Catholics (myself included) who don’t think homosexuality is a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/4 "2005-12-01T21:09:11Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > Yeah I don’t understand this either. Catholics think that homosexuality is a choice, right? So if a priest chooses to be celebate, isn’t he then choosing not to be homosexual from the catholic point of view? The Catholic Church’s official position is that homosexuality isn’t a choice, but, usually, an “intrinsic disordered inclination”…in other words, that some people have something wrong with them, for whatever reason, that makes them sexually attracted to members of the same sex instead of the opposite sex. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/5 "2005-12-01T21:09:41Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > Yeah I don’t understand this either. Catholics think that homosexuality is a choice, right? So if a priest chooses to be celebate, isn’t he then choosing not to be homosexual from the catholic point of view? Nope. The Church does not consider homosexuality to be a choice. From the catechism: “The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. The persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/6 "2005-12-01T21:11:35Z")
! ! ! Perhaps I should have noticed this a lot sooner, but . . . Check out the Google ads that magically appeared at the bottom of this thread! Does the Board software generate those automatically, from keywords? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/7 "2005-12-01T21:15:36Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > The Catholic Church’s official position is that homosexuality isn’t a choice, but, usually, an “intrinsic disordered inclination”…in other words, that some people have something wrong with them, for whatever reason, that makes them sexually attracted to members of the same sex instead of the opposite sex. Is that the official justification for barring them from the priesthood? Because they’re “flawed”? (I know some churches insist persons with certain kinds of flaws, particularly physical ones, are ineligible to become priests or ministers. In Michener’s novel about South Africa, _The Covenant,_ one of the Boer colonists wanted very much to become a “predikant” or minister in the Dutch Reformed Church, but he couldn’t because he had a walleye and a hunchback; all he could be was a lay “sick-comforter.”) ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/8 "2005-12-01T21:25:21Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > “The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. The persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition” Ahh, I was under a misapprehension then. So if not a choice, is it then not a sin? Or is homosexual behavior still a sin, even if the “victim” cannot prevent the desires. > [@BG](#): > > ``` > ! ! ! Perhaps I should have noticed this a lot sooner, but . . . Check out the Google ads that magically appeared at the bottom of this thread! Does the Board software generate those automatically, from keywords? > > ``` Heh, you never noticed that? Yes, Google ads chooses ads to display based on keywords in the page. In about half of GD threads it gives an add of a service that will connect you with Young Republican Singles, showing that the algorithims still needs some work. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/9 "2005-12-01T21:33:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Is that the official justification for barring them from the priesthood? Because they’re “flawed”? No. This is all fallout from the seminary scandal. Basically, last year, the police raided this seminary in St. Polten, Austria, and found on it’s computers a lot of porn…mostly pubescent male child porn, as well as adult gay porn (some reports say there were something like 40,000 different pornographic images and videos). Around the same time, this Austrian magazine published photos of priests at the seminary kissing and fondling students. There was an internal church investigation and the seminary was closed down last year. This led to fears, though, by some members of the Catholic hierarchy, that this wasn’t the only seminary where this was happening. They said, “Hey, these seminaries should be places to train priests, not so that people can have gay orgies”, and also that this bad reputation…that priests are gay, that seminaries are centers of gay life, etc., is one of the reason more young men aren’t joining the priesthood. Hence, the new guidelines. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/10 "2005-12-01T21:37:46Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > Ahh, I was under a misapprehension then. So if not a choice, is it then not a sin? Or is homosexual behavior still a sin, even if the “victim” cannot prevent the desires. Homosexual behavior is a sin. Being homosexual isn’t. A gay person should, according to the Catholic Church, be celibate (just like an unmarried straight person). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/11 "2005-12-01T21:38:22Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > No. This is all fallout from the seminary scandal. [beavis & butthead] Heh-heh . . . heh-heh . . . He said “seminary!” [/b&b] ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/12 "2005-12-01T21:55:17Z")
So if the priest is careful to molest only kids the opposite sex, is he OK under the new rules? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/13 "2005-12-01T21:58:21Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > Heh, you never noticed that? Yes, Google ads chooses ads to display based on keywords in the page. In about half of GD threads it gives an add of a service that will connect you with Young Republican Singles, showing that the algorithims still needs some work. Yeah, “Bush is an Idiot” threads only trigger the first word as a keyword. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![cbarnes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e4f/32.png) [@cbarnes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cbarnes)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/14 "2005-12-01T22:01:04Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > Yeah I don’t understand this either. Catholics think that homosexuality is a choice, right? So if a priest chooses to be celebate, isn’t he then choosing not to be homosexual from the catholic point of view? No, this is not correct. Homosexuality is from the Catholic point of view intrinsic. > [@Catechism of the Catholic Church](#): > > 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. Based upon their own criteria they should allow gay men into the priesthood. Then again, Catholicism isn’t well known for consistency. Assuming that the man does not indulge in sex, then there is no reason by their own canonical law that they would ban homosexuals. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/15 "2005-12-01T22:06:36Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > So if the priest is careful to molest only kids the opposite sex, is he OK under the new rules? Sexual molestation of children, regardless of the sex of the child, is still not allowed, nor, in the Roman rite, any sexual activity by priests unless the priest has a special dispensation regarding that restriction. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/16 "2005-12-01T22:08:45Z")
I sort of understand the concept-- Homosexual acts are supposed to be sinnful-- but I’m not sure it makes sense. Supposing the person had a history of stealing, and has reformed. He wants to go into the priesthood even though he still has strong desires to steal things. As long as he doesn’t actually steal anything, is that a problem? Would the Church refuse ordination in that case, or only in the case of homosexual feelings? Of course, there isn’t any reason to expect this policy to “make sense”… ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/17 "2005-12-01T22:11:19Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Homosexual behavior is a sin. Being homosexual isn’t. A gay person should, according to the Catholic Church, be celibate (just like an unmarried straight person). And if you’re going to be celibate, hey, why not be a priest? Except now they don’t want you. Is it just me, or is this a lose-lose proposition for the church? Or put it another way – is the Catholic hierarchy interested in remaking the church, turning it from a church people belong to ethnically, to a church populated only by true believers? A much smaller but more faithful church, in a word? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/18 "2005-12-01T22:13:04Z")
> [@cbarnes](#): > > No, this is not correct. Homosexuality is from the Catholic point of view intrinsic. Thanks for posting that. I wish someone had gone straight to the source and quoted the catechism sooner. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ImaginalDisc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e57/32.png) [@ImaginalDisc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ImaginalDisc)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/19 "2005-12-01T23:27:24Z")
Wouldn’t becoming a preist sort of sell the idea of life long celibacy to homosexuals just a tad better? Priest: Bob, you are gay, that is bad. It makes Baby Jesus cry. Stop having gay sex. Don’t have straight sex either, unless you’re married. Bob: So, I should basically have no sex at all? Priest: Yes Bob: So…about that. Is there a way to put a silver linning on this at all? I mean, I could be a preist like you, right? As long as I’m not getting any, I can at least get my kicks out of telling other people they shouldn’t get any. Priest: Ah, no. You see, the fact that you’ve had sex with a man at all, or even thought about it precludes you. Bob: You know, you have really nice eyes… Priest: That’s sweet, but I have an altar boy…eh…I mean I have a boyfreind…ah…I think I hear Jesus calling, bye! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614/20 "2005-12-02T00:14:13Z")
> [@ImaginalDisc](#): > > Wouldn’t becoming a preist sort of sell the idea of life long celibacy to homosexuals just a tad better? I think that’s one of the things they don’t want, though. They don’t want gay men saying, “Well, I have to be celebate anyway, so I might as well join the priesthood.”, first, because from the Catholic perspective, the priesthood isn’t just a job, but a calling from God, and not something you should just settle for, and second, from a practical standpoint, the priesthood isn’t an easy career. It’s more than just being celibate…you work long hours, you don’t get paid much, you get moved around a lot, you have to be obedient, you have to be discreet, and it’s a lifelong commitment. They don’t want people who aren’t ready for that going in, because if they’re just doing it to bring meaning their celibacy or out of some sense of guilt, they won’t be happy and won’t do a good job. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gays-now-excluded-from-catholic-priesthood-wtnonf/333614.md?page=2)