# Gaza claims debunked? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435 "2009-02-04T17:24:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435/1 "2009-02-04T17:24:13Z")
Of course the news that the Israeli offensive wasn’t actually as awful as was initially claimed will get little news play, but it is still [worth noting.](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1061189.html) > [@](#): > > The United Nations has reversed its stance on one of the most contentious and bloody incidents of the recent Israel Defense Forces operation in Gaza, saying that an IDF mortar strike that killed 43 people on January 6 did not hit one of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency schools after all. … > > … a teacher in the UNRWA compound at the time of the strike “was adamant” that no people had been killed inside the compound. … The newspaper said that the teacher had been told by the UN not to speak to the media. That last bit is especially troublesome. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435/2 "2009-02-04T17:29:46Z")
I’m militantly unsurprised. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435/3 "2009-02-04T17:45:49Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > That last bit is especially troublesome. No particular thoughts on this story except that it hardly changes the broad picture of massive civilian suffering caused by the Israeli attack. As for this, is it really unusual for organizations to instruct their employees not to talk to the media about a controversial issue? I find it a lot less troubling than the Israeli media blockade during the attack. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435/4 "2009-02-04T17:58:25Z")
Really? A false report about a UN school being bombed, which was widely used as “proof” that the IDF was not making efforts to minimize civilain harm as much as possible (given the military targets’ locations) and with witnesses told to stay quiet about the fact that the report was false is less troubling than keeping outsiders from coming in during an active conflict? That’s an interesting POV. It says much about where you are coming from. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435/5 "2009-02-04T18:05:57Z")
Raise your hand if you expected the effects of the Israeli offensive to be misrepresented by the media and the UN to demonize Israel. /raise hand ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435/6 "2009-02-04T18:10:37Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Really? > > A false report about a UN school being bombed, which was widely used as “proof” that the IDF was not making efforts to minimize civilain harm as much as possible (given the military targets’ locations) and with witnesses told to stay quiet about the fact that the report was false is less troubling than keeping outsiders from coming in during an active conflict? > That’s an interesting POV. It says much about where you are coming from. And it shows where \*you \*come from that you’d automatically assume the UN report was fabricated with an agenda, rather than rumors getting mistaken for data somewhere down the line, or that people not noticing the mistake and not caring to investigate the claim were “told to stay quiet about it”. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435/7 "2009-02-04T18:24:02Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Really? > > A false report about a UN school being bombed, which was widely used as “proof” that the IDF was not making efforts to minimize civilain harm as much as possible (given the military targets’ locations) and with witnesses told to stay quiet about the fact that the report was false is less troubling than keeping outsiders from coming in during an active conflict? > That’s an interesting POV. It says much about where you are coming from. Aren’t you making a whole lot of assumptions about what happened exactly; about a story we don’t know that much about. Even if this story is accurate there is nothing to suggest that the woman was told to stay quiet about the falsehood of the report. Once again is it that unusual for an organization involved in a controversial story to instruct its employees not to talk to the media? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435/8 "2009-02-04T18:25:25Z")
**Kobal** , where did I assume an agenda? Merely the facts as now presented: there was no bombing of the compound; the UN now admits that those of the “seperate branch” of the UN who said there was were telling an untruth; witnesses to the facts were told to be quiet about it by UN officials; and UN officials only backtracking after independent sources had solid evidence that the story was false. You draw your conclusions from that on your own. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435/9 "2009-02-04T18:27:50Z")
From the Haaretz story: > [@](#): > > UNRWA, an agency whose sole purpose is to work with Palestinian refugees, said in response Tuesday that it had maintained from the day of attack that the wounded were outside of the school compound. UNRWA said that the source of the mistake in recent weeks had originated with a separate branch of the United Nations. Frankly it sounds like a standard fog of war incident rather than some sinister anti-Israel conspiracy. And if Israel had allowed journalists into Gaza there would have been much more accurate information about what exactly happened. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435/10 "2009-02-04T18:29:18Z")
Yeah, I read the [Globe and Mail](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090129.wgazaschool29/BNStory/International/home) article but decided not to start a thread about it. I mean… come on Jake, it’s the UN. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435/11 "2009-02-04T18:50:03Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Kobal** , where did I assume an agenda? Merely the facts as now presented: there was no bombing of the compound; the UN now admits that those of the “seperate branch” of the UN who said there was were telling an untruth; witnesses to the facts were told to be quiet about it by UN officials; and UN officials only backtracking after independent sources had solid evidence that the story was false. > > You draw your conclusions from that on your own. Err, there’s nothing about anyone being told to be quiet about anything in your article. Considering your OP line about “of course the media won’t talk much about it”, I’d say you are um… somewhat less than impartial and unbiased about the whole deal 😛 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435/12 "2009-02-04T18:54:22Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > there’s nothing about anyone being told to be quiet about anything in your article > [@his article](#): > > a teacher in the UNRWA compound at the time of the strike “was adamant” that no people had been killed inside the compound. … The newspaper said that the teacher had been told by the UN not to speak to the media. The G&M article. > [@](#): > > The teacher who was in the compound at the time of the shelling says he heard three loud blasts, one after the other, then a lot of screaming. “I ran in the direction of the screaming [inside the compound],” he said. "I could see some of the people had been injured, cut. I picked up one girl who was bleeding by her eye, and ran out on the street to get help.“But when I got outside, it was crazy hell. There were bodies everywhere, people dead, injured, flesh everywhere.” > > The teacher, who refused to give his name because he said UNRWA had told the staff not to talk to the news media, was adamant ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435/13 "2009-02-04T19:38:15Z")
I think that some papers in the early confusion of the attack reported erroneously, and then those reports were picked up by others and so on. Some papers correctly identified what happened, for example: > [@](#): > > According to Ging, 30 people had been killed in the strike near the school, where 350 people were taking shelter and which is in Jabaliya refugee camp in Gaza. Another 55 were injured, five of them critically, he said. **Most of the casualties occurred outside the school rather than in the building itself** , Ging said, describing the neighborhood as a built-up area. [http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/06/africa/mideast.php](http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/06/africa/mideast.php) > [@](#): > > hours after Israeli mortar shells exploded \*\*near a U.N. school \*\*sheltering hundreds of people displaced by the onslaught on Hamas militants. At least 30 Palestinians died, staining streets with blood. > **[CBS Bay Area - Breaking Local News, First Alert Weather & Sports](https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/)** > > Latest breaking news from KPIX-TV CBS Bay Area. There were other incidents in which ordinance landed inside schools on that day, if I read my googling correct. It seems that this attack got lumped in with the others. Plus, you have to consider that Israel claimed that militants had fired from inside the school. That statement implicitly, even if not intentionally, confirms that the mortars landed in the school. In short, this was a case of sloppy reporting in the fog of war, not intentional lying. Unfortunately, people have agendas and they will siezethis minor discrepancy to discredit as many of their perceived opponents as possible. Really, what’s the big difference? Is it now ok that 46 civilians, many of them children, were killed because it happened in the street instead of the school? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435/14 "2009-02-04T20:16:43Z")
Look, the plain fact is that you can’t trust any “news report” coming from just about anyone in the Middle East. Israel is a lot more trustworthy, but they are pretty no-nonsense and don’t really want reporters hanging out in combat zones. That doesn’t mean they want to hurt civilians, but thems the breaks; it’s war. Most other nations/terrorists/guerrillas around there are extremely duplicitous and will do anything to get good press. Including fabricating whole events with fake footage (both Hamas and Hezbollah use this frequently). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435/15 "2009-02-04T21:30:03Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > [quotes] Um, must have skipped that line. My mistake. Still, “not to talk to the media”. Not “not to talk to the media _about this_”. Same goes for the G&M article : “The UNRWA has told its staff not to talk to the media”. That’s generic and, furthermore, sensible : no comments to the press. i.e. “We don’t take sides”. That’s a pretty common “governmental” directive, isn’t it ? IMNSHO that’s another proposition entirely from “Don’t talk about the bullshit we’re making up about this incident to smear Israel”. Besides, it’s not like “the UN” is a person. I can totally picture a manager or official trying to cover his ass. And besides, while your article does state “the school wasn’t attacked”, it does say that the 42 innocents dead figure is legit, and they were killed right outside. Considering the imprecision of mortars, I’d say that it leaves the question of whether Israel really did take all possible precautions in its invasion on the table. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435/16 "2009-02-04T21:35:08Z")
I’m sure the UN was too busy drafting resolutions condeming the repeated attacks on Israel from Gaza to spend time setting the record straight. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435/17 "2009-02-06T15:22:49Z")
Just out of curiousity but have there been any major condemnations of Hamas opening fire on Israeli troops from the vicinity of schools,hospitals,aid convoys etc.or of using their own civilian population to hide amongst when engaging the I.D.F.? Just thought I’d ask as the media seems to have been very quiet on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-claims-debunked/484435/18 "2009-02-06T15:51:10Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Just out of curiousity but have there been any major condemnations of Hamas opening fire on Israeli troops from the vicinity of schools,hospitals,aid convoys etc.or of using their own civilian population to hide amongst when engaging the I.D.F.? > > Just thought I’d ask as the media seems to have been very quiet on this subject. One: they are the bad guys. We expect them to be savages but expect better of Israel because it makes a big noise about how humane it is while still somehow managing to kill hundreds of kids. Two: [EU Official condemns HAMAS](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232643751651&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) [Human Rights Watch](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/870584.html) (from previous attack) > [@](#): > > The Human Rights Watch organization Wednesday condemned Hamas and Fatah for committing “serious violations of international humanitarian law, in some cases amounting to war crimes” in violence in Gaza in recent days. [HR report itself](http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/06/12/gaza-armed-palestinian-groups-commit-grave-crimes) > [@](#): > > During recent fighting in the Gaza Strip, armed Palestinian groups have committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, in some cases amounting to war crimes, Human Rights Watch said today. [Hamas War Crimes](http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-dershowitz10-2009jan10,0,4232460.story) (Dershowitz in the LA Times) [More HRW condemnations from this round](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/30/human-rights-watch-israel_n_154273.html)