# Gaza Invasion: Why are Israeli casualties so light? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467 "2009-01-15T18:33:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/21 "2009-01-15T21:53:17Z")
I had heard on NPR yesterday that there was some devision between Hamas on the ground in Gaza, who was willing to discuss a cease-fire, and Hamas leadership in Damascus who aren’t. Could this be a sign of further breakdown of Hamas as an institution, or just a hiccup? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/22 "2009-01-15T22:00:54Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Regarding technology and training, the Israelis seemed to have learned from the lebanon war and are putting those lessons to good use. That’s true, but I believe the Israeli’s have learned something from the Iraq war as well. Since the Lebanon war, the US military developed a tactic in Sadr City whereby they used drones that were alerted by detonation flashes and immediately videoed the scene, following a departing vehicle back to “base” , and thereby fixing a target. The success of the Sadr City campaign has been attributed to this tactic, and I’ve no doubt the Israelis are emplying it in Gaza as well. The problem of course is that these Hamas guys are going back to their homes and their families become casualties as well. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/23 "2009-01-15T22:04:35Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Another question could also be: Why are the Palestinian casualties so high? > > The answer is two fold: 1)\*\* Palestinians \*\*hide themselves and their weapons amongst the population and 2) Israel engages in some indiscriminate bombing. I think you mean Hamas , since the palestinians are the population. The problem is when you use area effect weapons like mortars and tube artillery your effecting the area, since the blast area of the shell radiates out. The effect for Hamas , is that they can fire off a few rounds of ammo at the Israelis, perhaps kill a few unfortunate soldiers and then generate a counter battery fire from the Israelis that kills quite a few of the indig population. Win/Win for Hamas , direct casualties and propaganda. The trick however is to get out of the area before the IDF brings the rain Declan ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/24 "2009-01-15T22:14:23Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > I had heard on NPR yesterday that there was some devision between Hamas on the ground in Gaza, who was willing to discuss a cease-fire, and Hamas leadership in Damascus who aren’t. > > Could this be a sign of further breakdown of Hamas as an institution, or just a hiccup? It might at this time be a simple communications issue. Hamas in Syria may not exactly know who is alive in the Hamas command structure. I am not really up on what the signals and intelligence folks can do with cellular technology, in regards to monitoring and triangulating cellphones, but i personally would probably err on the side of caution and limit the broadcast time, if its not being jammed in the first place. So the Gaza branch is not getting any information in, and the Syrian branch probably has decided that command will devolve to them. Its after the dust has settled with the IDF , will we know if there is a schism in the ranks. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/25 "2009-01-15T22:26:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Hama’s rockets into Isreal are pretty “indiscriminate”, and I think the Isreali’s _try_ to minimize civilian casualties. As opposed to Hamas who wants as many as possible. I don’t know. Their argument is twofold: 1.) Since every citizen is drafted into the military there are no innocents (a bit of a semantic stretch there, but not completely untrue) 2.) They operate within their capability, if they had better rockets they would’ve hit military targets (ignoring of course the suicide bombers that blow themselves up on school buses). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/26 "2009-01-15T22:33:22Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I don’t know. Their argument is twofold: > > 1.) Since every citizen is drafted into the military there are no innocents (a bit of a semantic stretch there, but not completely untrue) > > 2.) They operate within their capability, if they had better rockets they would’ve hit military targets (ignoring of course the suicide bombers that blow themselves up on school buses). Do they actually argue the issue? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/27 "2009-01-15T22:44:15Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > 1.) Since every citizen is drafted into the military there are no innocents (a bit of a semantic stretch there, but not completely untrue) Even the infants? The children under sixteen? The elderly? The peace protesters? > [@](#): > > 2.) They operate within their capability, if they had better rockets they would’ve hit military targets (ignoring of course the suicide bombers that blow themselves up on school buses). How do you ignore the suicide bombers? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/28 "2009-01-16T14:54:58Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Even the infants? The children under sixteen? The elderly? The peace protesters? Regrettable collateral damage. > [@hajario](#): > > How do you ignore the suicide bombers? The fact that they use them at all shows an incredibly desperate situation. \*Playing devil’s advocate here, I don’t necessarily believe Hamas is right and in electing them, the Gaza Strip Palestinians deserve some responsibility for the current outcome. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/29 "2009-01-16T16:22:41Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Another question could also be: Why are the Palestinian casualties so high? Because most of them are civilians who are just sitting ducks for the Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/30 "2009-01-16T16:37:54Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Another question could also be: Why are the Palestinian casualties so high? > > The answer is two fold: 1) Palestinians hide themselves and their weapons amongst the population Just like those damn Russians at Stalingrad and the perfidious Churchill Gang in London. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/31 "2009-01-16T16:40:41Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Just like those damn Russians at Stalingrad and the perfidious Churchill Gang in London. England did not launch rocket attacks on Berlin from hidden bases inside Londaon. There were these things, we call them 'airfields" where these other things “bombers” were used.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/32 "2009-01-16T16:52:06Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Just like those damn Russians at Stalingrad and the perfidious Churchill Gang in London. [/QUOTE] Which would probably account for why their civilian casualties were so high…no? But it’s an apples to oranges comparison. The Germans (and the Brit’s, Russian’s, American’s, Japanese, etc etc) were deliberately targeting the civilian populations of their enemies. The Israeli’s are targeting Hama’s paramilitary positions that are located (deliberately) in and among the civilian population or near civilian structures. See the difference? -XT ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/33 "2009-01-16T19:28:31Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > The Israeli’s are targeting Hama’s paramilitary positions that are located (deliberately) in and among the civilian population or near civilian structures. And the twisted fighters [like it that way.](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/09fighter.html?scp=5&sq=taghreed%20el%20khodary&st=cse) > [@](#): > > A car arrived with more patients. One was a 21-year-old man with shrapnel in his left leg who demanded quick treatment. He turned out to be a militant with Islamic Jihad. He was smiling a big smile. > > “Hurry, I must get back so I can keep fighting,” he told the doctors. > > He was told that there were more serious cases than his, that he needed to wait. But he insisted. “We are fighting the Israelis,” he said. “When we fire we run, but they hit back so fast. We run into the houses to get away.” He continued smiling. > > “Why are you so happy?” this reporter asked. “Look around you.” > > A girl who looked about 18 screamed as a surgeon removed shrapnel from her leg. An elderly man was soaked in blood. A baby a few weeks old and slightly wounded looked around helplessly. A man lay with parts of his brain coming out. His family wailed at his side. > > “Don’t you see that these people are hurting?” the militant was asked. > > “But I am from the people, too,” he said, his smile incandescent. “They lost their loved ones as martyrs. They should be happy. I want to be a martyr, too.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/34 "2009-01-16T23:15:58Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And the twisted fighters [like it that way.](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/09fighter.html?scp=5&sq=taghreed%20el%20khodary&st=cse) Simply fucking disgusting ! There is no accomadation with people like that. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/35 "2009-01-16T23:46:58Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And the twisted fighters [like it that way.](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/09fighter.html?scp=5&sq=taghreed%20el%20khodary&st=cse) But again **Finn** it shows the futility of using brute force in anything other than a very limited manner. It shows why it doesn’t work. The civilian dead and wounded serve the Hamas agenda. Hitting the military targets, even for months, even at the cost of many more civilian dead and at the cost of greater destruction of civilian infrastructure, is highly unlikely to erase Hamas, perhaps it will slow them down, but for what? Six months? A year? Maybe maybe not. And in return Hamas gets cred and kudos and support in the Arab world and even in segments of the West. In return moderate Arabs are forced to keep quiet about criticizing Hamas lest they be called traitors or worse. The additional short to medium term military and security advantage that this sort of operation brings beyond the more limited approach is small compared to the harm it does, not only to the Gazans, but to Israel’s own best long term interests. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/36 "2009-01-17T00:04:15Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But again **Finn** it shows the futility of using brute force in anything other than a very limited manner. It shows why it doesn’t work. > > The civilian dead and wounded serve the Hamas agenda. Sure. I’ve kept my arguments in the past few days mostly to the questions of legality, as those have come up most often. Brute force, unless you go for Total War, will not eliminate any problems. You are certainly correct in that it’ll delay them or push them back, but Israel isn’t going to eliminate Hamas and a new generation will be around to pick up the rocket launchers a week after the IDF has withdrawn. If not sooner. But, by the same token, virtually no nation on the planet will accept indiscriminate rocket fire directed against its cities and towns. At best we’ll see a ‘holding action’ in the future with UAV’s providing near instant targeting and firepower to destroy rocket launching sites. Most likely a resolution will come when/if the Gazans see the West Bank with open borders, peace, and a viable economy and Hamas launching rockets and instituting Sharia at the end of a cudgel. > [@DSeid](#): > > Hitting the military targets, even for months, even at the cost of many more civilian dead and at the cost of greater destruction of civilian infrastructure, is highly unlikely to erase Hamas, perhaps it will slow them down, but for what? Six months? A year? Maybe maybe not. Actually, something I found truly fascinating and that was a true eye opener to me is that even a recently [strongly anti-Israel article](http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090113/FOREIGN/591536290/1002) put the total at _slightly better than a 1:1 ratio of terrorists to civilians killed._ I realize it’s a tangential point to the one you’re making, but it really is truly awe inspiring. Sources like the JPost have put it at 3:1, but even when even Israel’s harsh critics put it at just a hair over 1:1, it’s amazing. That a military campaign could be carried out in Gaza with the death toll being, proportionally, so low compared to the valid targets is simply amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/37 "2009-01-17T01:23:40Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Hitting the military targets, even for months, even at the cost of many more civilian dead and at the cost of greater destruction of civilian infrastructure, is highly unlikely to erase Hamas, perhaps it will slow them down, but for what? Six months? A year? Maybe maybe not. Hopefully the grace time can be spent encouraging a more moderate type to emerge after the fighting has stopped. > [@DSeid](#): > > And in return Hamas gets cred and kudos and support in the Arab world and even in segments of the West. In return moderate Arabs are forced to keep quiet about criticizing Hamas lest they be called traitors or worse. Not this time around , the only folks giving Hamas a free ride are on our shores,so to speak. When Arab governments are not only silent on the matter , but when they do speak hamas has been roundly condemmed for the ones who started the affair to begin with, that alone is progress right there. > [@DSeid](#): > > The additional short to medium term military and security advantage that this sort of operation brings beyond the more limited approach is small compared to the harm it does, not only to the Gazans, but to Israel’s own best long term interests. It had to be done, no country will tolerate that. So the Israelis are dammed if they do , and dammed if they dont. The text in a recent bloomberg article says that the israeli cabinet is meeting to discuss ending the agressive negotiation that has been going on the last several weeks. So far the USA has pledged to deploy technology of a sort that will render inoperative Hamas ability to restock supplies of weapons. A multi-national third party troop presence led by Turkey, but expected to contain a number of other national forces. And I believe that the palestian authority controls the border point [Bloomberg](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=awINboL19FSY&refer=home) So when Israel accepts the cease fire agreement , I expect that within 2 weeks we are either going to see a puchts (spelling) or a civil war between hamas and fatah. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/38 "2009-01-17T08:00:11Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > If the press releases are correct, Israel has occupied about 20 square miles of the Gaza, and engaged Hamas in pitched battles. Yet, they have only suffered minimal casualties (about 13 wounded, 2 dead). What does this mean? Are the Hamas fighters waiting to draw them in (before counter attacking)? Or are the Israelis playing it sage (demolishing every house they attack)? Hello ralph! Comparing Israel’s resources to that of the Palestinians is like comparing a mountain to a pebble. The majority of Palestinians live in squalor and abject poverty while most Israelis enjoy a high standard of living. In Jerusalem, the Palestinian hospital I had occasion to visit didn’t even own a mop with which to clean up vomit. They (the Palestinians) were caring for two young European tourists who foolishly went on the trek to Masada without sufficient fluids in 120 degree heat. That such poverty should exist in the midst of such wealth does not speak well for the humanity of the well-to-do in the area. The Jewish hospital, two kilometers away, has… everything. ☹ It wasn’t the best day I’ve ever had. However, the two young ladies did recover, thank God! They have no money for weapons, ralph - or very little of it. Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/39 "2009-01-17T08:16:07Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > Hello ralph! > > Comparing Israel’s resources to that of the Palestinians is like comparing a mountain to a pebble. The majority of Palestinians live in squalor and abject poverty while most Israelis enjoy a high standard of living. > > In Jerusalem, the Palestinian hospital I had occasion to visit didn’t even own a mop with which to clean up vomit. They (the Palestinians) were caring for two young European tourists who foolishly went on the trek to Masada without sufficient fluids in 120 degree heat. That such poverty should exist in the midst of such wealth does not speak well for the humanity of the well-to-do in the area. The Jewish hospital, two kilometers away, has… everything. ☹ It wasn’t the best day I’ve ever had. However, the two young ladies did recover, thank God! > > They have no money for weapons, ralph - or very little of it. > > Jesse. I just reread this and want to make sure that I’m not painting the average Israeli in a bad light. It’s the governments and those who back them who create and prolong the misery on _all_ sides of this war. Just to be clear - Jess. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2009, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/40 "2009-01-17T08:36:59Z")
Jess - are you sure your “hospital” was in Jerusalem? From this list [here](http://www.science.co.il/Hospitals.asp?s=city), the following hospitals are in Jerusalem (West and East - they’re a single municipality): > [@](#): > > Alyn Hospital Pediatric and Adolescent Rehabilitation Center > Bikur Holim Hospital > Hadassah Hospital > Hadassah Medical Center - Ein Kerem > Herzog Hospital > Shaare Zedek Medical Center > Talbiya Psychiatric Hospital None of those are “Jewish” or “Arab” hospitals - they are all state-owned (like all Israeli hospitals) employ doctors of both groups and accept patients regardless of race. Perhaps the place you visited was actually in Ramalla or Hebron (and thus run by the Palestinian Authority), or it was some fly-by-night neighborhood clinic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467.md?page=3)