# Gaza Invasion: Why are Israeli casualties so light? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467 "2009-01-15T18:33:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/61 "2009-01-18T01:54:27Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t think it’s too much to ask for some independently-verifiable facts. This isn’t about God, after all. No, Bryan, it’s not ALL about God although I didn’t tell you the _entire_ story because of the venue here. Regardless, if we cannot tell each other our stories in order to make a point we consider important without being subject to base and libelous comments, then… what’s the point? - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/62 "2009-01-18T02:00:14Z")
Addendum: Brazil, It would serve no purpose for me to call a hospital in East Jerusalem. I’ve already been there and am not ignorant of the facts. If you had called, you would have broadened your worldview considerably, and who knows, perhaps some of what you learned may have trickled down to your heart. We can _all_ use more compassion and humility than we have. - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/63 "2009-01-18T02:02:01Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > . . . > > You failed to address whether **you called me a liar** when I asked if I’d misread your paragraph. It certainly reads that way to me. If you feel like opening a pit thread, I will be happy to tell you whether I think you are a liar or not. All I will say here is that your story is not credible. In any event, you implied that I made the argument that your story is false because I was not present to witness the facts underlying your story. I called on you to either show me where I made such an argument or admit that I made no such argument. Unsurprisingly, you did neither. I do not waste time arguing with people who engage in such strawmanning. Thus, I am “banning” you which means that I will no longer debate with you. Bye. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/64 "2009-01-18T02:17:19Z")
What a nice birthday present! Thank you! Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/65 "2009-01-18T04:36:22Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I do not waste time arguing with people who engage in such strawmanning. Thus, I am “banning” you which means that I will no longer debate with you. Bye. \Dude, how does one get on that list, 'cause I’d sure like to be in it. Seriously, it sort of concerns me I am not in it _already_ knowing how it’s increasing by the week. Then again, it’s only been – not that I expect anyone to notice, just pointing out the specific time-frame I’ve been involved with-- about a month or less since I’ve started posting in any sort of ‘regular’ base again.\* However I do recall an episode or two where we’ve exchanged posts and you weren’t satisfied – or as your pal **Finn** is wont to insinuate: > [@Finn](#): > > Play Fair \ 'cept I don’t play and have no sides – . ATM, I maintain that the timing of the invasion was rather carefully planned by those in power in Israel (change of POTUS, local elections and so forth. You know, the usual with a bloodier twist. Hate is the only WMD that can only be defused by the holder of same…) I also maintain that Israel is going to have to deal with some financial problems beyond those caused by the American financial collapse. TTFN ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/66 "2009-01-18T05:13:37Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > No, Bryan, it’s not ALL about God although I didn’t tell you the _entire_ story because of the venue here. Regardless, if we cannot tell each other our stories in order to make a point we consider important without being subject to base and libelous comments, then… what’s the point? - Jesse. Well, your account is interesting and I believe you believe you’re telling it accurately, but I’m not inclined to take it as evidence that the Israelis are doing something wrong or inhumane with regard to hospital care. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/67 "2009-01-18T05:33:10Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > 'cept I don’t play and have no sides – . ATM, I maintain that the timing of the invasion was rather carefully planned by those in power in Israel (change of POTUS, local elections and so forth. You know, the usual with a bloodier twist. Hate is the only WMD that can only be defused by the holder of same…) There is a major problem with that statement. Two days before the Hanukkah season, on December 19,2008, Hamas elected to unilaterally end the ceasefire and on a daily basis unleased dozens of rockets into Israel. It took Israel eight days to respond with “Operation Cast Lead”. Seems to me that the whole clusterfuck was planned by Hamas to take advantage of the Jewish holiday season. The Hamas timing also takes place about a week after the Eid al-Adha celebration ensuring all the Hamas boys who went on their Hajj are back. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/68 "2009-01-18T05:36:29Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Alessan** , aren’t there hospitals whose patient mix is more Arab or Jewish? > > For example, there is [The St John Eye Hospital](http://www.stjohneyehospital.org/content.asp?catid=35&id=35) which primarily serves the Arab population. (And by their report is equipped “to an exceptional high standard”), and [The Augusta Victoria Hospital](http://www.wfn.org/1998/12/msg00368.html) which serves Arabs of both Jerusalem and the West bank (more about that institution [here.](http://www.thelutheran.org/article/article.cfm?article_id=5189&key=26925719)) > > Maybe that list only lists those that are officially part of the Israeli healthcare system and these ones are privately owned and run outside of it? They seem to focus on serving the Arabs of the West Bank who obviously do not have coverage as Israeli citizens. Hmmm… you know what, you’re probably right: the East Jerusalem hospitals are there to serve the Palestinians, who are not covered by the Israeli healthcare system (although many are still treated through it) . However, the actual inhabitants of East Jerusalem where the hospitals are located, being Israeli citizens, should have access to the so-called “Jewish” hospitals, which sort of undermines \*\*Jesse’s \*\*point. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/69 "2009-01-18T06:01:50Z")
> [@Jesse\_Leigh](#): > > You failed to address whether **you called me a liar** when I asked if I’d misread your paragraph. It certainly reads that way to me. The prohibition against calling another poster a liar is consistent with the general rule against name-calling and is intended to avoid thread hijacks as the participants squabble over whether one or the other is lying or simply has a different appraisal of perceived facts. However, it is pretty much the nature of debates and arguments that opponents do not believe each other’s expressed views or proferred “facts.” The rule against calling other posters liars is not intended to stifle every expression of doubt. I am aware that a number of posters would like us to use that rule as a hammer to prevent any expression of doubt, but we do not have the time or energy to read every post looking for every possible permutation of “I doubt your narrative” and punishing that expression. We also hope that most posters will recognize that if they are in contention with another poster, there will be a certain level of doubt directed toward their comments and not spend miles of electrons contending that they have been called “liar.” You are not the only poster who has felt that we should exterminate expressions of doubt from **Great Debates** , but you have been quite vocal on the issue in several threads in the last day or so and I wanted to clarify the intent and enforcement of the rule. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/70 "2009-01-18T07:01:08Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > \Dude, how does one get on that list, 'cause I’d sure like to be in it. :shrug: It takes two to tango. If you prefer not to engage with me, just don’t read or respond to any of my posts. It’s as simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/71 "2009-01-18T09:08:59Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > The second most responsible group for the bloodshed (after Hamas) are the westerners who allow their disgust at the horrific situation to overwhelm their good sense. > > Of course, this is precisely the response Hamas is looking for. > > Hamas grins while butchering their own people, strapping bombs to their own children, firing rockets into Israeli schools from the middle of crowds of civilians, because they know a large portion of the western world will react to the horror by either giving in to Hamas, or just pretending both sides are evil. > > The truth is, we cannot let Hamas’ strategy work. We are all better off if Israel responds to acts of war as exactly what they are, rather than holding back because Hamas is using human shields. The problem is westerners who validate Hamas’ strategy, ensuring that they will keep using it and the violence will continue. > > If there was widespread agreement that it is not ok to use children as living bombs and shields, and that such a strategy will not be allowed to work, then Hamas would lose support. I will be the first to admit that it is hard to stomach… it is absolutely horrifying. But it is the right thing to do. An the Israelis are blameless, I have seen on this site a quote from an Israeli (speaking from memory here, and I can’t search) “Better 1,000 palestinians dead than 1 Isaeli” Doesn’t this sort of attitude bear just as much culpability for what is happening now as anything the Palestinians are doing? ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/72 "2009-01-19T04:33:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, your account is interesting and I believe you believe you’re telling it accurately, but I’m not inclined to take it as evidence that the Israelis are doing something wrong or inhumane with regard to hospital care. Hello Bryan! I didn’t mean to imply that the Israelis are ‘Doing something wrong or inhumane with regard to hospital care.’ My only experience with hospital care there is along the lines of ‘Never the twain shall meet,’ on BOTH sides. If there are Jewish/Arab hospitals there now, it’s news to me. I don’t know enough about who has received specific dollars from who to comment on the **cause** of Palestinian poverty. Primarily I noticed the human suffering and didn’t assign blame to Israel alone. War, by itself, is ‘inhumane’ and neither side is innocent. The slums of Calcutta and Bombay are just as ‘inhumane’ and I don’t assign blame to one country for that either. In my heart I believe we’re _all_ responsible for the welfare of one another. I’m a pacifist and wouldn’t go to war if you paid me to, but I understand why Israel is at war with Palestine and surrounding countries. When you’re surrounded by millions of people who’d like to push you into the sea and literally exterminate your race, it doesn’t leave you with a warm, fuzzy feeling. Much as I hate that it’s necessary, for Israel to survive they need the IDF and their well worn machine guns. ☹ Love - Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/73 "2009-01-19T05:29:47Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The prohibition against calling another poster a liar is consistent with the general rule against name-calling and is intended to avoid thread hijacks as the participants squabble over whether one or the other is lying or simply has a different appraisal of perceived facts. > > However, it is pretty much the nature of debates and arguments that opponents do not believe each other’s expressed views or proferred “facts.” The rule against calling other posters liars is not intended to stifle every expression of doubt. I am aware that a number of posters would like us to use that rule as a hammer to prevent any expression of doubt, but we do not have the time or energy to read every post looking for every possible permutation of “I doubt your narrative” and punishing that expression. We also hope that most posters will recognize that if they are in contention with another poster, there will be a certain level of doubt directed toward their comments and not spend miles of electrons contending that they have been called “liar.” > > You are not the only poster who has felt that we should exterminate expressions of doubt from **Great Debates** , but you have been quite vocal on the issue in several threads in the last day or so and I wanted to clarify the intent and enforcement of the rule. tomndebb, If you are addressing me (?) then, with respect, I posted **one post** in the thread about whether calling people liars should be permitted or not. I wouldn’t call that ‘Quite vocal.’ Just to be clear, I also have never said that you should ‘Exterminate expressions of doubt from **Great Debates**.’ I’m not an administrator here so I leave the should’s and shouldn’t’s to the administration to decide. I have enough decision making to do on my own forum. I made a point, in private, to one of the moderators here, of saying that I **did NOT** wish to start a thread (as was suggested) about lying, or who said what to whom since I have no interest in, nor would I derive any pleasure or satisfaction from seeing another member ‘get theirs.’ I can understand why you might want to ‘Clarify the intent and enforcement of the rule,’ but implying that I have in any way made the subject an issue is misleading. I’m sure (I know) you have members here to whom you could refer who would better illustrate your point. Peace. Jesse. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/74 "2009-01-19T05:36:00Z")
**Jesse** , There have _always_ been Jewish/Arab hospitals there. More precisely there have always been Israeli hospitals for Israeli citizens be they Jewish or Arab. They are not the hospitals for those who are not Israeli citizens, such as Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza however. There are hospitals that exist for them including some in East Jerusalem. They work on cash payments, charitable donations, and occasional payments from sources like the UN. They are not funded by the Israeli government even though some of the Israeli hospitals have programs with them to help them out. No Israeli citizen, Palestinian or Jew would go there in preference to a state run hospital. ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_Leigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@Jesse\_Leigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesse_Leigh)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2009, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467/75 "2009-01-19T05:43:32Z")
**Thank you, DSeid.** As I said earlier, I wasn’t there to check out the hospitals. I appreciate having factual information on the subject now, however. Have a peaceful night (or day, whichever is the case). Love - Jesse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-invasion-why-are-israeli-casualties-so-light/481467.md?page=3)