# Gaza paramedic massacre thread from March '25 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 14, 2025, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033 "2025-04-14T13:45:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033/1 "2025-04-14T13:45:27Z")
This is separating a Pit discussion into (hopefully) a less vitriolic thread per the DM request of one of the participants. Details of the incident: [Rafah paramedic massacre - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_paramedic_massacre) On March 23rd, the IDF attacked several unarmed medical vehicles in Gaza and killed, then buried, several dead aid workers along with some of the vehicles. The IDF changed their story to explain this at least once - ISTM they clearly lied and then changed their story once those lies were exposed. AFAICT the IDF has still not explained why they buried the vehicles with a bulldozer. The IDF is claiming they are investigating, but I’m very skeptical this will result in anything significant (at least without outside pressure). Pasting from the Wikipedia article: > IDF Chief of Staff Eyal Zamir ordered an internal investigation into the incident by the unit responsible for handling suspected war crimes. To date, dozens of incidents have been referred to this unit, but no reprimands or punishments have been issued against IDF soldiers. > According to the Israeli human rights organization Yesh Din, the system established by the IDF’s general staff to investigate potential war crimes is primarily designed to shield the military from accountability while maintaining the appearance of due process. An analysis of Israeli military campaigns over the past decade revealed that at least 664 complaints were submitted for review, yet more than 80% were closed without even launching a criminal investigation. The organization concluded that the military’s law enforcement system seldom pursues charges against low-ranking soldiers and almost entirely avoids investigating senior commanders. Is there any reason to believe this investigation will be any different? Thoughts, @Babale? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033/2 "2025-04-14T14:14:12Z")
I don’t really trust [Wikipedia’s](https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-wikipedia-s-pro-hamas-editors-hijacked-the-israel-palestine-narrative) taken on anything related to this topic, or any other contentious issue. And a handful of context free numbers from an organization that by its nature is going to portray the IDF as badly as possible are hardly convincing. Genuine question: looking at the list of random numbers you quoted, do you _honestly_ think they tell any kind of coherent story? You don’t think some crucial info is missing? For example, what was the bar for an incident to be reported? If it was low, then it would make perfect sense that most didn’t lead to criminal prosecution… And of the 80% that didn’t face criminal charges, how many suffered serious consequences, including incarceration, under military tribunes rather than civilian courts? So, to answer this question: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is there any reason to believe this investigation will be any different? Thoughts, @Babale? You’ve _hardly_ made a convincing case as to, differently _from what_? A random Wikipedia editor’s opinion? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033/3 "2025-04-14T14:30:09Z")
Different from Yesh Din’s appraisal. But I guess we’ll see. How will your opinion change if nothing significant comes out (meaning something like “this was a regrettable accident, policies and procedures have changed to ensure this doesn’t happen again”) from the IDF’s investigation of this incident? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033/4 "2025-04-14T14:39:29Z")
I looked at the info about that Wikipedia page. A large number of people have participated in writing it. But they are all vetted, because Wikipedia has started restricting who can post about contentious topics. Ordinary “editors”, like me, can only request changes. The page is being supervised by both the Palestinian and the Israeli teams at Wikipedia (along with several other teams, like one focused on “death”.) For what it’s worth, i trust a Wikipedia article on something like that considerably more than i trust statements by Israeli or Gazan authorities. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033/5 "2025-04-14T14:42:57Z")
Thanks for this. @Babale, can you point to anything in that link that you find questionable? Looks entirely factual to me, AFAICT. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033/6 "2025-04-14T14:47:31Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > And a handful of context free numbers from an organization that by its nature is going to portray the IDF as badly as possible are hardly convincing. > > Genuine question: looking at the list of random numbers you quoted, do you _honestly_ think they tell any kind of coherent story? You don’t think some crucial info is missing? For example, what was the bar for an incident to be reported? If it was low, then it would make perfect sense that most didn’t lead to criminal prosecution… And of the 80% that didn’t face criminal charges, how many suffered serious consequences, including incarceration, under military tribunes rather than civilian courts? Can’t you do a little investigating yourself to try and answer these questions? See if the numbers are published by any organisations you find more trustworthy, and find out whether anyone involved suffered consequences other than criminal charges? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033/7 "2025-04-14T14:48:21Z")
I don’t understand why there isn’t a clear communication channel between the Palestinian emergency services and the Israeli military so these situations can be avoided. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033/8 "2025-04-14T14:51:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But I guess we’ll see. How will your opinion change if nothing significant comes out (meaning something like “this was a regrettable accident, policies and procedures have changed to ensure this doesn’t happen again”) from the IDF’s investigation of this incident? Depends on what the evidence shows. Just because some “independent” medical personnel said so doesn’t mean I believe every aspect of this story. Don’t forget that “independent” medical personnel also claimed 500 people died when a misfired PIJ rocket hit a parking lot, and blamed Israel. Not to mention this latest round of bullshit: > **[Hamas suspected of manipulating Gaza death toll, research shows](https://www.euronews.com/2025/04/03/hamas-run-health-ministry-quietly-removes-thousands-from-gaza-death-toll-researchers-find)** > > Some 3,400 names were removed from the most recent death reports from the Strip, raising concerns of inflated figures by Hamas. 3,400 _named_ deaths - ie people that were supposedly confirmed as dead, not just the estimates the ministry releases that are bound to be inaccurate - removed from the list, because they did not, in fact, die. Surprising absolutely no one who has been paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033/9 "2025-04-14T14:51:11Z")
How is Eyal Zamir’s record when it comes to investigations of this sort, involving possible malfeasance by IMF troops? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2025, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033/10 "2025-04-15T00:28:49Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > I don’t understand why there isn’t a clear communication channel between the Palestinian emergency services and the Israeli military so these situations can be avoided. Is the problem that there aren’t channels, or is it that the channels are being ignored? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2025, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033/11 "2025-04-21T00:34:10Z")
> **[‘Professional failures’ led to killing of Palestinian medics in Gaza, says...](https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/20/middleeast/israeli-military-professional-failures-gaza-medics-intl/index.html)** > > The Israeli military says “professional failures” led to the killing of 15 paramedics and first responders in an incident in Gaza in March, according to an investigation released Sunday. Mistakes. Tragic, but what can you do? Fire a few officers, but no criminal charges. No change to procedures. Kill some unarmed medics, try to bury all the evidence (including the vehicles), and lie about it, and you might just get a slap on the wrist! Are you satisfied with this, @Babale? ISTM this is yet another indication of a morally and ethically corrupt IDF. An organization that allows massacres like this, and attempted cover ups, with no more than slaps on the wrist, can’t possibly win a war in a heavily civilian area, not without monumental crimes against humanity. And, of course, I wonder how many times in this conflict members of the IDF have killed civilians, buried the evidence, and _not_ gotten caught? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2025, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033/12 "2025-04-21T13:25:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Mistakes. Tragic, but what can you do? Fire a few officers, but no criminal charges. No change to procedures. Kill some unarmed medics, try to bury all the evidence (including the vehicles), and lie about it, and you might just get a slap on the wrist! > > Are you satisfied with this, @Babale? Of course, they _didn’t_ bury the vehicles, as the investigation showed. But hey, some “independent” people on Twitter said they did, so it _must_ be true. > **[שקרים, תקלות ושגיאות: סמג"ד סיירת גולני יודח בעקבות תקרית "הרג הפרמדיקים" ברפיח](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/bksxkrzjll?utm_source=ynet.app.android&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=general_share&utm_term=bksxkrzjll&utm_content=Header)** > > שינויים בגרסאות, ירי בניגוד לפקודות: התקרית הובילה לכותרות בעולם, בעקבות התחקיר אישר הרמטכ"ל באופן חריג את הדחת סמג"ד סיירת גולני, הערה פיקודית למח"ט שהורה על מעיכת האמבולנסים. יחד עם זאת, התחקיר קבע: "אין ראיות להוצאה להורג ולכפיתת הרוגים, זו עלילת... The outlandish claims like that there were buried vehicles or that people were tied up and executed, of course turn out to be bullshit… Multiple high ranking people were fired for fuck-ups, and the procedures don’t need to be changed because _the things that caused this event were breaches of military procedures that already exist_ - hence why people can be justifiably fired and demoted… The unit itself is disciplining lower ranking officers and troops for their own breaches of protocol and orders… And I’m not sure how you can possibly make the claim that no criminal charges are being filed given that the military police has just started going through all the communications recorded from the event to determine if they’re going to bring any criminal charges. Not that I necessarily think charges are appropriate, given that the claims of a cover up are absolute bullshit - the vehicles were _not_, in fact, buried, and the IDF contacted the Palestinians authorities the next morning to tell them about the incident. It also would have been pretty hard to hide this from the thousands of Palestinians who walked by that road as part of an evacuation later that second day, going right past the wreckage - which is, in fact, why the commander ordered the vehicles crushed and pushed out of the way: to make room for the evacuation route. So… Am I _satisfied_? No, not at all - this is turning into Al-Ahli Parking Lot 2.0. Ten years from now, people will be citing this incident as if it is solid proof that Israeli troops murder people and cover it up, with all the actual info being lost to time for all but the most dedicated and educated on the topic. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2025, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033/13 "2025-04-21T13:29:56Z")
Moderating: Just a friendly reminder that this is MPSIMS. It’s not the pit. Also, no poster is required to answer questions from other posters. This is a proactive note. Discussion has been okay so far. Thanks, and let’s keep it that way. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2025, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033/14 "2025-04-21T13:59:38Z")
I’ll note that you presume that the IDF investigation and report is entirely accurate. Considering they already lied about this, I do not give them that benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033/15 "2025-04-24T07:19:50Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > This is a protective note. Discussion has been okay so far. Thanks, and let’s keep it that way. Protective or proactive? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033/16 "2025-04-24T12:26:25Z")
Thanks, I’ve fixed it. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033/17 "2025-04-24T18:20:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll note that you presume that the IDF investigation and report is entirely accurate. Considering they already lied about this, I do not give them that benefit of the doubt. Funny you should mention that. The IDF is still lying in their “investigation” of the attack. > New developments have come to light in the killing of 15 Palestinian medics and rescue workers by Israeli troops in the Gaza Strip last month, with evidence reportedly contradicting the [Israel](https://www.theguardian.com/world/israel) Defense Forces’ claim that soldiers did not fire indiscriminately at the medical workers. > > The Israeli daily Haaretz reported on Wednesday that its analysis of the IDF’s own materials collected as part of an internal investigation into the incident contradicted the army’s claim that soldiers did not shoot indiscriminately at Palestinian ambulances and a fire engine in the early hours of 23 March. > > Instead, Haaretz said, soldiers fired continuously at the vehicles for three and a half minutes from close range despite the aid workers’ attempts to identify themselves. > **[New details on killing of paramedics in Gaza appear to contradict IDF’s account](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/24/new-details-on-killing-of-paramedics-in-gaza-appear-to-contradict-idf-account)** > > Haaretz report comes as supreme court gives Israeli PM more time to respond to affidavit from fired Shin Bet chief ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-paramedic-massacre-thread-from-march-25/1017033/18 "2025-04-24T22:50:30Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Multiple high ranking people were fired for fuck-ups, and the procedures don’t need to be changed because _the things that caused this event were breaches of military procedures that already exist_ - hence why people can be justifiably fired and demoted… The unit itself is disciplining lower ranking officers and troops for their own breaches of protocol and orders You have cites for that? The story I read (probably from the Guardian, but I don’t remember) said that one guy had been fired, and another “formally reprimanded”. And also that the Minister of Justice was outraged by even those minimal penalties being imposed.