# Gaza Pullout **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 21, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981 "2005-08-21T14:20:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/41 "2005-08-22T04:11:24Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > What rational purpose is served by the Israelies staying in the Middle East? Nobody wants them, they only stay alive by waging constant war with their neighbors, and – check me if I’m wrong – no Western country restricts Jewish immigration anymore. Wouldn’t this all be solved if the non-Arab population moved to Europe and the USA? I sincerely hope this is a joke. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/42 "2005-08-22T04:24:23Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Undoubtedly. I make it a practice to respond to other people the way they respond to me. Neurotik called the tune with the tone of post #13 in response to me, if you don’t like the way the music sounds, I suggest you take it up with him, not me. No, **Neurotik** did not call the tune of this thread. Your first post (#3), with its ridiculous hyperbole and and unsubstantiated generalizations, called the tune of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/43 "2005-08-22T05:20:11Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > **Larry Mudd** : It is probably too late now for all of them to leave, but there is no other solution. The cycle of retribution will continue long after everyone who remembers the founding of Israel is gone, long after the religions have died off, long after there is no distinction between the two sides fighting. > > The reason the Gaza pullout hasn’t attracted much debate here is because it’s pointless. It’s another meaningless act in a soap opera that will never end. Seems to be that you oppose my country’s existance because it goes against your innate sense of tidiness. To you, every problem has a neat and permanant solution, and if you can’t figure it out then just throw the whole damn thing away. Well, fuck that and fuck you. I’m not going anywhere just to spare your sensibilities. _Every_ nation’s history is a soap opera: They fight, they make peace and then they fight again, and in the middle they try to make a good life for their citizens. I have a good life and a good country - better than any in the world - and I’ll be damned if I’ll throw them both away because some schmuck half a planet away is mildly distraught by a conflict he obviously barely understands. What purpose is served by us being here? What purpose do we need? Our existance is purpose enough. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/44 "2005-08-22T06:02:53Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > No, **Neurotik** did not call the tune of this thread. > > Your first post (#3), with its ridiculous hyperbole and and unsubstantiated generalizations, called the tune of this thread. Really? Unless you want to call my characterizations of the TM an unsubstantiated generalization, which is certainly your prerogative, what about the rest of my post (you know, the part dealing with the actual issue at hand) meets that definition? And where exactly in that post was I being a dick or insulting to anyone, which after all is the comment that I was responding to, that you have quoted here? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/45 "2005-08-22T06:16:08Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Really? Unless you want to call my characterizations of the TM an unsubstantiated generalization, which is certainly your prerogative… That’s exactly what i was talking about. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion on the situation in Israel and the Occupied Territories. I have no comment on that right now, and whether i agree or disagree with it is immaterial to my point. But i, and others in this thread, were reacting to your hostile and stupid assertion about what Dopers “in general” believe. It was moronic generalization at its very worst, and seemed designed to do nothing but exhibit and, in turn, arouse hostility. And if you don’t agree, then ask yourself this: why couldn’t you have given us your opinion about the situation and let it go at that, without spouting off in ignorance regarding the alleged beliefs of thousands of other board members? What really puzzles me is why you persist in being such a fucking tool with increasingly predictable regularity. You know perfectly well that i disagree with many of your political positions. But i don’t object to you holding positions different to mine. I don’t think you’re an asshole _because_ of your political positions; i think you’re an asshole in spite of them. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/46 "2005-08-22T09:10:08Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > What rational purpose is served by the Israelies staying in the Middle East? Nobody wants them, they only stay alive by waging constant war with their neighbors, and – check me if I’m wrong – no Western country restricts Jewish immigration anymore. Wouldn’t this all be solved if the non-Arab population moved to Europe and the USA? A very large proportion of the Jews in Israel are from Arab countries, who can now proudly proclaim that they are Judenrein. Europe has repeatedly shown that Jews are not welcome. How many Europeans, not just Germans, are still alive today that murdered their Jewish neighbors when circumstances permitted? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/47 "2005-08-22T13:57:10Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Undoubtedly. I make it a practice to respond to other people the way they respond to me. Neurotik called the tune with the tone of post #13 in response to me, if you don’t like the way the music sounds, I suggest you take it up with him, not me. Actually, you began it with your equivalent of “all the hippie peaceniks think that the Palestinians are lilly-white bastions of goodness and deep down want the Israelis to bend over”. Post #3. Comes before #13. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/48 "2005-08-22T15:04:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Is the Israeli government going to be repaid by the Palestinians for the property they leave behind? Who gets it? Are they going to have a lottery or something? Will Palestinians moving in have to pay for it? It never was Israeli property, just illegally-occupied land. Of course, there are people there who think that the Creator of the Universe specifically said they could live there, which is part of the problem. I wish everybody in the Middle East would wake up tomorrow and find that they’ve lost all their religious beliefs. Make that everybody on the planet. I tend to agree with Isaac Asimov’s comment that in 1948 Jews created “the world’s largest ghetto.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/49 "2005-08-22T16:17:57Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > No, they gained a country in the late 1940s when Arabia and the Middle East were still partitioned by Europeans. They immediately had to fight unfriendly natives and instead of leaving for a friendlier shore they stayed to fight a war that will never end. > > _That_ I do not understand. _Was_ there a friendlier shore for Jews in the late 1940s? Could you point it out on a map? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/50 "2005-08-22T20:59:44Z")
**Bryan Ekers** : The US, for one, had just prosecuted and killed all of the Nazis responsible for the Holocaust that it could lay hands on, and would continue to hunt down Nazis in South America and other regions for decades to come in addition to providing material support to Israel. France and the UK were no slouches when it came to killing Nazis, either. Even Germany, not a popular choice for many, was well on the path to sanity (both flavors) by that time. But that isn’t my point. My point is that it’s absurd to expect _anyone_ to leave, Jewish or Arab. It’s even more absurd to expect any kind of peace whatsoever unless somebody does. There is no more sanity in my `modest proposal’ than in bulldozing Palestinian homes and expecting them to go quietly. Patriotism is only hurting things. If both sides were to see their countries as means to an end rather than ends in themselves the problems would similarly disappear. Again, the problem is that _both sides_ would have to come to the same conclusion. There are enough demagogs on both sides to prevent that from happening. Is anyone else detecting a theme here? The phrase ‘both sides’ is coming up a lot in the previous paragraphs. _Both sides_ say they want peace and still fight a war. _Both sides_ say they have an inalienable, indisputable, irrevokable claim to the land. _Both sides_ fight dirty and can justify targeting civilians. _Both sides_ will have to be killed off if there will be any peace in this land. Universal Peace Through Universal Death. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/51 "2005-08-22T21:35:53Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > **Bryan Ekers** : The US, for one, had just prosecuted and killed all of the Nazis responsible for the Holocaust that it could lay hands on, and would continue to hunt down Nazis in South America and other regions for decades to come in addition to providing material support to Israel. France and the UK were no slouches when it came to killing Nazis, either. Even Germany, not a popular choice for many, was well on the path to sanity (both flavors) by that time. Yes, but were any of these nations receptive to large-scale immigration of displaced Jews? The 1997 film _The Long Way Home_ (winner for Best Documentary at the 1998 Academy Awards) discusses what was happening to surviving European Jews immediately after the war. There weren’t a lot of welcome mats being put out. > [@](#): > > But that isn’t my point. Well good, because it doesn’t make any sense. Personally, I’d like to see Israel encourage the Gaza Strip Palestinians to establish their own mini-state, even helping them build up infrastructure. The nation of Gaza could be a beacon of a peaceful Palestinian state. And if we’re to see cynical motives in everything, a little bit of division introduced among the Palestinians where one group becomes relatively prosperous can’t hurt Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/52 "2005-08-22T22:21:34Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Actually, you began it with your equivalent of “all the hippie peaceniks think that the Palestinians are lilly-white bastions of goodness and deep down want the Israelis to bend over”. > > Post #3. Comes before #13. > > -Joe If you’re going to get your panties in a wad over things that I didn’t say, then I can’t help you. However, if you are concerned about someone “being a dick and insulting people”, then don’t look in my direction because it wasn’t I who opened that particular can of worms. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/53 "2005-08-22T23:36:30Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > However, if you are concerned about someone “being a dick and insulting people”, then don’t look in my direction because it wasn’t I who opened that particular can of worms. _tap_ _tap_ > [@Weirddave](#): > > The Teemimg Millions, in general, are of the opinion that Palestinians are pure and innocent and good, peacefully living in harmony with nature and in mortal fear of the mean, demonic, bloodthirsty Isralies who periodically show up to rape, plunder and pillage, so of course they think this is a good thing. In [Post #3](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6495249&postcount=3) of this thread. Who was it who opened the can again? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/54 "2005-08-23T01:02:33Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > _tap_ _tap_ > > In [Post #3](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6495249&postcount=3) of this thread. Who was it who opened the can again? I know what I wrote. There is nothing insulting or condesending about it. What exactly is your point? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/55 "2005-08-23T01:17:21Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > I know what I wrote. There is nothing insulting or condesending about it. And yet a bunch of people who read your post disagree with you. If you didn’t intend to be insulting or condescending, and still believe that you were not, then maybe you need to ask yourself some questions about your communication skills. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/56 "2005-08-23T02:35:58Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > I know what I wrote. There is nothing insulting or condesending about it. What exactly is your point? My point is that the “Teeming Millions” are NOT “of the opinion that Palestinians are pure and innocent and good, peacefully living in harmony with nature and in mortal fear of the mean, demonic, bloodthirsty Isralies who periodically show up to rape, plunder and pillage”. Some may be. Many are not. There is no “in general” involved here. And if you can’t see the strawmanity, condescension and well-poisoning inherent in that quote, you have serious perceptual problems, sir. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/57 "2005-08-23T02:40:37Z")
The bias of the board here toward the Palestinians always seemed well established to me. It seems to me that it’s always the same few people arguing in favor of Israel against all comers. Perhaps that’s my perception, but since perception is 9/10ths of reality that’s how some of us see things. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/58 "2005-08-23T02:46:58Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > The bias of the board here toward the Palestinians always seemed well established to me. It seems to me that it’s always the same few people arguing in favor of Israel against all comers. Perhaps that’s my perception, but since perception is 9/10ths of reality that’s how some of us see things. I don’t deny that there is a strong pro-Palestinian slant here. That’s what happens when a relatively large portion of your membership comes from outside the USA, considering that Europe is very much pro-Palestinian. What I object to is the generalization of that sentiment to the majority of the Straight Dope, as well as the tone of that characterization as posted by **WeirdDave** , who has to be well aware that there are many more Dopers in the middle of the continuum on this subject than there are on either end. I actually object more to his generalization of the sentiment than I do to the sentiment itself. **Dave** is too intelligent a poster not to realize that his paragraph was overgeneral and condescending. That he won’t acknowledge this disappoints me because, though we disagree on a lot of political issues, I’m led to believe (mostly by his choice of wife :)) that he’s much more perceptive than that, and has better taste than to take the massive swipe with a very wide brush as he did in his first post. ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/59 "2005-08-23T03:27:35Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > _Was_ there a friendlier shore for Jews in the late 1940s? Could you point it out on a map? Maybe that big white blob at the bottom… ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981/60 "2005-08-23T07:59:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Personally, I’d like to see Israel encourage the Gaza Strip Palestinians to establish their own mini-state, even helping them build up infrastructure. The nation of Gaza could be a beacon of a peaceful Palestinian state. And if we’re to see cynical motives in everything, a little bit of division introduced among the Palestinians where one group becomes relatively prosperous can’t hurt Israel. Don’t you think any mini-state of that kind would just become another staging area for attacks? It’s never good to over-simplify the players in any conflict, but that is what immediately springs to mind. Of course, it isn’t like either side is hurting for ways to hurt the other at this point, either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaza-pullout/317981.md?page=4)