GB: why was economy and food situation worse after WWII?

Um, they didn’t have to invent a new Technology. Everybody who looked at the Facts of New Deal (Zompist's Rant Page or Liberalism works) without the filter of a specific ideology, could see which measures helped against the Depression and improved the economy.

All European countries had an economic boom right after the war. Obviously the Continental countries had more to rebuilt, but still: there was a lot of consumer demand, and no more loss through war (Building a bomb which then explodes is waste; Building a railway improves economy).

The German (and Austrian and Netherlands) Wirtschaftswunder was not a complete miracle because the rest was booming; it was partly remarkable for how quickly and well it did despite the obstacles (e.g. US and UK taking property instead of reparations, including big amounts of intellectual property, from the German industrial companies and giving it to their own companies).

So in a half-way well-managed Country, that boom would have been used not only for fulfilling consumer demand, but also for re-building/ modernizing infrastructure, improving education etc. to lay a solid foundation of slow growth in the next decades, instead of crashing.

I just gathered anecdotal Impression from a Person who read newspapers 1955 onwards, and one tentative factor I found was that both France and UK were not only loosing their colonies (raw materials), they got themselves dragged into fights to Keep them, which was a new waste of Money (and People). And the French were also not doing so well - but in the EWG, they could Export better?

What we would now would be a graph of GDP of the Major countries after the war, and maybe a graph of how much % of the GDP is due to Exports. Because if GB before the war relied heavily on the colonies not only for raw materials (and Food Imports) but also as a consumer market (Buy British was mentioned) - but France had a large internal market without the colonies - then the sudden loss would hit GB economy harder. (And joining the EWG/EG sooner to Profit from the custom Union and replace some of that market would have made more sense, but if the faith was in the Commonwealth, and mistrust of the continent, than that hindered that step).

Um what has parliamentary System got to do with it? How hard or easy it is to dissolve the government/ parliament and call for new elections depends on how the laws are written. I would characterize most modern Democracies as “parliamentary” because they have some type of parliament, but how often they Call Special elections varies wildly. (Part of that is not only the laws, but the Meta-System Problem: if the Population is angry enough at the government, or the politicans too egoistic, the Laws get interpreted to make a new election).

I didn’t assume that. But I have pointed out that calling UK post-war government “socialist” in itself is meaningless. What policies did they enact that hindered the growth of UK economy? Which measures were different compared to other european countries?

Because all european countries had poor, deprived Population, they all were stronger “socialist” than 20 or 30 years later: they all had to run on and implement methods to alleviate the poverty, and to satisfy consumer demand. Giving People Jobs with decent wages by producing consumer goods which People could buy with those wages is the obvious answer (plus govt. measures like infrastructure, easing regulations from wartime etc.)

That’s a too broad question. 1. At what Level do the high tax rates apply? If the middle class has enough Money to buy consumer goods, taxing the rich is not harmful. Again, even the US had a Maximum rate of 70% during the 50s, yet it boomed: the Middle class grew, and spent Money.
Low tax rates on the rich do not lead to “entrepeneurs” We just Need to look at the numbers in the US from Reagan onwards. Low tax rates for the rich means Money disappears in Shares and Fonds: capital gain grows, but not normal economy.
2. How is the tax applied? A high tax on capital gains, but low on real Business Investments (that is, buying a more efficent machine for your factory, or paying your workers more) does encourage Business.
3. What other hurdles or easements are there to open/ expand a Business? If one sector is monopolized, the tax rate doesn’t matter. If it takes months of red tape to open a Business, that hinders more than one week of red tape. If there is high consumer demand, but production of consumer goods is limited, then the economy is hindered regardless of the tax rate.

It’s not “tight” Regulation, it’s “smart” Regulation. Requiring a Limit on how much energy is used, or how much waste is produced from a machine Forces a factory to upgrade. Building trade Schools to get skilled craftsmen means that Quality production is possible. And a dozen other measures.

I don’t know why you fixate on “entrepneurship” - it’s often used by ideologues with a certain Special meaning in AE.

If there is a demand by consumers to be able to buy products, you don’t have to “encourage” industry to produce. You just have to not hinder them. That however includes the workers - if you don’t make sure they get a decent wage, then they aren’t able to buy the products (As Henry Ford realized, but few American entrepeneurs after him did). If you don’t have enough workers, or enough skilled workers, or enough modern machines, then you can’t produce Quality products, and your consumers might prefer Exports (as happened in the 19th century with the “Made in Germany” Label: originally, German products were inferior, because they were starting out and learning (similar to Japan in the 1950s). But then they improved, and British customers realized that the knives from Solingen were at least as good, if not better, than the knives from Sheffield, but cheaper.)

Um, they did let themselves get dragged into the Indochine war through the French, which turned into the Vietnam war, instead of just accepting the same Moral right to self-governance of the Vietnamese as they themselves had claimed, when Ho Chi Minh

(Ho Chi Minh - Wikipedia)
(Roosevelt was in favour of the “self-determination of nations”, but Truman wasn’t).

Calling Country X “The sick man of Europe” was first used about 1853, referring to Ottoman Turkey, Sick man of Europe - Wikipedia because the Regime was corrupt and incompetent, and development far behind the rest of Europe (and because the Major western nations were Standing around the sickbed, sharpening their knives so once the sick man was dead, they could each carve out some property for themselves).

I was looking for Facts, and posted in GQ, not for political opinions.

Besides, if you look at how the US government has acted, not what they might Claim, the US loves colonies: U.S. Interventions in Latin America or just now: Hawaii A brief overview of the 1893 overthrow of the Hawaiʻi's Queen Liliʻuokalani | by Jonathan Fisk | Medium

They had experience with Communism and Stalin. The South Vietnamese didn’t want to play. It wasn’t helping France keep a colony.

Truman had experience? You mean, where Stalin was Uncle Joe because it was useful having him as Ally?

And on what Basis does “We have experience” trump the right to self-determination? If somebody had said, when US started their war of indepence, “We have experience with Democracies, they don’t work”, would that have stopped the wish of the rich US elite to Keep their wealth?

Churchill knew that Stalin was a son of a bitch early on. I’m not sure if Roosevelt knew, or how long it took Truman to figure it out. It was obvious when countries “liberated” by Russia had puppet governments established. Self determination where, are we speaking of Vietnam or Eastern Europe?

Or: we have principles as Long as they don’t get into the way.

There’s an important difference: Vietnam was a colony fighting for indepence - like US some time ago; and therefore asked US for help. US denied help.
Eastern Europe meanwhile was not colony. And yes, there were Coups and shady dealings.
If those are bad, why did the US do those in Latin America? Do only White People like Eastern Europeans have a right to self-determination, but not Brown ones? Or is it: if the commies do it, it’s evidence that they are bad; if we do it, it’s right, because we are the good guys?

Oops. My mistake. G.B. was still at war, but not with the Nazi. Thanks for the correction.

The Allies were still fighting the Japanese, but not Europe, unless Finland, am I’m having a difficult time determining if the Finns were fighting Russians or Nazis in July, 1945.

(post shortened)

I believe it’s important to note that G.B. had a parliamentary system because that implies that the voters, the people, were choosing their form of government. In 1945, the voters chose to replace Churchill and the Conservatives with Attlee and the Labour Party. Even the Labour Party considers themselves to be socialist. It’s not meaningless, it’s an identifier of the parties actual political leaning.
I have no idea what - “it’s often used by ideologues with a certain Special meaning in AE” - means? I prefer the Cambridge dictionary definition.

entrepreneurship
noun [ U ] ​
skill in starting new businesses, especially when this involves seeing new opportunities

Can we find common ground?
A government can chose to encourage entrepreneurship. Successful entrepreneurship can lead to more jobs, more taxes for government projects, more food, more cars, and more homes, which leads to even more jobs. G.B. was in direct competition with their neighbors in Europe. Which county’s voters chose the representatives that would help them best compete in the new, anti-war, pro-capitalism, international marketplace? The socialist-leaning Labour Party was probably not the best choice if the goal was to successfully compete in the newly developing markets.

The voters chose to replace the socialist-leaning Labour Party in 1951.

The Finns fought against Stalin and his communist in 1939 and 1940. They joined with Hitler when he chose to fight against Stalin’s communists in 1941 (The enemy of my enemy sort-of-thing) until 1944. The Finns then chose to join the Allies, and drive Hitler’s Nazis out of Finland in 1944/1945. I’m under the impression that the Finns simply wanted to left alone, and were willing to shoot anyone who disturbed their peaceful existence.

As did all most other European countries after WWII.

It’s still meaningless, no matter how often you repeat it, since you don’t provide any context. I don’t care what Labour back then called themselves: what policies did they pass that were markedly different from NL, FRA, Austria and other European countries?
Which policies were reversed by the Conservatives - because they were “socialist” - and which were kept because they did work?

And to repeat again: from todays Point, most post-war governments were “socialist” in their policies. A govt. can ignore poverty if it affects 20 or 30% of the Population. But if 80% of the Population doesn’t have houses/ clothes/ enough Food, the government Needs to adress this, no matter what the Party in Charge calls themselves.

The Adenauer government in Germany was very conservative, and yet they built houses with government incentives and lowered tax rates on the middle/ low class, not on the rich. Is that socialist in your book?

I’m referring that many Posters here are American, many vocal are liberatarian, who believe in the ideology that “giving rich People Money via tax breaks or subsidies will cause economic and Job growth, because rich People are job-creators and entrepneurs” no matter how often it’s pointed out that Facts contradict that.

Or a government can ignore the “entrepeneurs” and help the citizens. As I said in previous Posts with examples of what I know Continental governments did. They didn’t “encourage entrepeneurs”; they passed a bundle of laws, a few of which helped industries, many which helped citizens.

What? Why? Every Country was in competition with each other, but that was secondary because the first boom was internal demand. (As I said before, helping citizens with fair wages to buy the stuff that the industry produced.)

Again, you still haven’t given any Facts about what policies the “socalists” passed that actually hindered competition. Or established why it was thought a good idea to compete first, instead of building a solid internal market first, educate + improve infrastructure second, and only then start full competition.

And again, the sensible course, if you want to compete, is joining international Agreements that ease the custom hassle. As the Marshall plan started, which the continentals quickly expanded with EWG/EG.

As I said, I’m not interested in broad political Statements, I hoped to get Facts. That some expert has spent a year looking at the data, compiling it, and somebody can Point to me one Essay or book, instead of having to read half- a-dozen without knowing how competent the authors are.

Thanks, Doorhinge. It was the 1944-45 part I found confusing. They were pretty tough guys.

Not exactly my field but… I’ve seen the opinion that the loss of India was a massive blow to GB. This whole colony business did not always pay, and captive market or not, a lot of colonies was just a drain. But I hear GB did really, really well out of India and losing it hurt. I don’t think France had any colonies comparable to India. I’ve also heard the opinion (in pub discussions I am afraid) that GB expended a lot more effort and resources on keeping their colonies.

I would also speculate the GB was less motivated to adapt than France and Germany etc. They had a way of doing things that had worked very well for them historically, they WON that damn war. Sure, they would like stuff like the NHS, and council housing etc, but I think there was resistance to actually structurally changing things.

You could argue, with hindsight, that British socialists and conservatives alike chose the wrong grounds on which to compete internationally, namely hanging on to Great Power status at the cost of economic competitiveness. The exchange rate they were tied to in the Bretton Woods system, to devalue which would have damaged credibility with creditors like the US and with all those countries holding sterling balances, needed inflation to be controlled. Rationing was, for quite some time, part of that. Maintaining a military presence east of Suez and developing our own nuclear weapons was another part of that, and remained so for a long time. The price of new US loans was restoring convertibility at the old exchange rate - and things like handing over patents on jet engines, for example.

But could they simply have pulled up the drawbridge, let the pound find its level and the economy sort itself out, and international commitments and standing go hang? Probably not.

Socialism is state control of the means of production. Low taxes and subsidized housing is not socialism.
The UK nationalized the coal industry, the Bank of England, the entire healthcare industry, the electric industry, the telephone industry, the railroad industry, inland water transport, natural gas industry, and the iron and steel industry. That is not full socialism but they did socialize much of the British economy. After Labor lost power the only industry privatized by the subsequent Conservative government was the steel industry in 1955. It wasn’t until Thatcher was elected that privatization began in earnest.
The Law of Comparative Advantage is why it is a bad idea to build a solid internal market first.

So not just 83% but a 15% surcharge… and worse.

Another source claims the top rate was on £20,000 - so fairly high. But the article I remember suggested that a senior engineer or a department head could expect to pay extremely high taxes. So we’re not just talking Beatles or Rolling Stones (they paid 98%), but higher end wage earners too.

(post shortened)

That’s good to know. Just to clarify, you’re looking for a single book or essay that ignores/rejects the fact that the self-proclaimed socialist of the Labour Party are socialists, and which considers entrepreneurs to be rich people and not job-creators.

Good luck with your search.

Thank you, that sounds interesting, especially with earlier mentions of GB colonies being more important.

The reluctance to Change might also be connected with loosing the Empire - it was difficult for the French to swallow, too, and they went to war to Keep the colonies twice, and went for Nuclear weapons, too. So that blow to self-esteem might have strengthened the desire to at least be unique by not doing the same things the continenals were doing - like joining the EG.