# GD Tutorial for Real People, Like Me, Who Want To Participate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 8, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755 "2003-02-08T20:36:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Persephone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/41 "2003-02-10T01:41:30Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by flowbark \* 1. [And I encourage **Persephone** to show us the door if this becomes too much of a hijack.] Oh no. Feel free to debate debating. It’s all a learning tool! ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/42 "2003-02-10T01:43:09Z")
\*Also, think about what arguments people will make against your points. \* Nice tip. Sometimes, the poster might think about pitching the post to his or her adversaries. One might argue that Politician X’s budget is inconsistent with Liberal ideals, if one was a conservative for example. Of course, at other times you may prefer a full-frontal assault. (Factually (or logically) grounded and nonabusive, of course). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/43 "2003-02-10T01:54:54Z")
There are a lot of more-subtle points above, but I think the main one is still to have command of the relevant facts. Everything else follows or can be papered over, but if you don’t have the facts, you don’t have an argument, and if you do, you do. Do not follow the examples of those who stomp away pissily when their lack of knowledge of the facts, or their filtered use of them, or their gaps in logic based on them are shown to them. Who the fuck is **beagledave**? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/44 "2003-02-10T01:57:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Persephone \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by flowbark \* > > > > 1. [And I encourage **Persephone** to show us the door if this becomes too much of a hijack.] > > Oh no. Feel free to debate debating. It’s all a learning tool! \*\* Two additional points you need to be aware of: [ul][li] **Every** thread gets hijacked![/li][li]We can turn **anything** into a debate![/li][/ul] 😃 ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/45 "2003-02-10T02:39:47Z")
Polycarp said: > [@](#): > > We can turn anything into a debate! Cannot! ---
**Author:** ![Persephone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/46 "2003-02-10T02:43:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > > Two additional points you need to be aware of: > [ul][li] **Every** thread gets hijacked![/li][li]We can turn **anything** into a debate![/li][/ul] > 😃 \*\* \*\*Poly. \*\* Bubbie. I’m from MPSIMS, aka Hijack Central. I can hijack with the best of 'em. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/47 "2003-02-10T03:25:45Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by David B \* \*\*Polycarp said: > [@](#): > > We can turn anything into a debate! > > Cannot! \*\* Can too!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![coosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@coosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coosa)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/48 "2003-02-10T03:27:42Z")
Thanks for starting this thread, **Persephone** - and a huge THANK YOU to all of the GDers who have posted with advice and information. Like **Persephone** and **Shirley Ujest** , I’m a little overawed by most of the GD denizens, so I rarely post here, and I definitely try to stay out of topics that I think are over my head! But I love _reading_ GD - it’s my favorite forum on the board, and I’ve gotten quite an education here over the last few years. So, if anyone is still wondering about their effect on lurkers - reading GD has literally changed my life since I discovered the boards way back in 1999. I often spend more time with a search engine looking up something from GD than I spend actually reading the threads. I love this place! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Persephone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/49 "2003-02-10T03:58:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Can too!! > > 😃 \*\* Cite? :::d&r::: ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/50 "2003-02-10T07:35:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by flowbark \* > > 1. Um, nothing gets definitively settled in GD, because the _topics_ are ones that don’t have factual answers. The issue (I guess) is the relative strength of various analytic tools, one of which is evidence weighing and collection. I suppose I disagree. If the evidence needs weighing like that it isn’t evidence, it is a debate in itself. (this was my point 3, not that _you_, by asking for clarification, had started a debate… even though you have! :p) > [@](#): > > And I guess my point is that other analytic tools are not more likely to settle a debate than evidence is. This would probably explain why we do not often participate in the same debates (a shame, of course, your discourse is most appealing). However, it would be simple enough to start an IMHO thread asking people: “If debating at the dope has changed your mind on something, was it more because of the evidence presented (data from citations) or more because of the arguments given?” Then we can argue over how accurate subjective interpretation is. 😃 The interplay between the two is of course there, a good argument needs to be backed by evidence, and what good evidence is is backed by an argument, but I think people would tend to consider one element stronger than the other in most cases (extrapolating from my own case rather irresponsibly). > [@](#): > > More generally, I would say the temperature of the debate is proportional to the players’ emotional investment in the outcome. I would imagine this is often quite true, but the recent metric debate put me in a foul temper when in fact I could care less what measurement system is used. > [@](#): > > _To Polycarp_ > Agreed. But distilling a particular policy position to its more fundamental and person-specific values and perceptual tendancies (biases?) can be instructive. Indeed, though not instructive on the evidence but the position. If a bias in perceiving evidence is revealed, for example, would you pull out more evidence to eliminate it? (perhaps so, but that sounds strange to me as I say it) ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/51 "2003-02-10T07:46:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Persephone \* > \*\*Cite? > > :::d&r::: \*\* You learn well, grasshopper. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/52 "2003-02-10T20:36:53Z")
My advice to people looking to get involved in GD is to be honest about your position and purpose in a debate. Don’t play games or try to trick people. Don’t post about one subject to lure people into discussing another one. To invent an example, don’t start a thread about date rape on college campuses if your intent is to convince people that students should be allowed to carry concealed weapons. Start the thread about the issue that you really want to talk about. Also avoid making points using sarcasm or irony unless you clearly indicate that this is what you’re doing, and always be sure to explain plainly what your real position is. High-profile posters whose beliefs on certain subjects are well-known can get away with more of this kind of irony than others, but even they shouldn’t take it for granted that everyone will understand what they really mean. Long ago on another forum I invented a rule I modestly called “Lamia’s Law”, holding that there is nothing you could possibly say online that is so obviously wrongheaded, stupid, offensive, or dangerous that you can expect that all readers will know you don’t mean it literally, because someone somewhere else online has already said the same thing and meant it. Keep that in mind and you’ll avoid a lot of misunderstandings. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/53 "2003-02-10T23:11:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Persephone \* > \*\*Cite? > > :::d&r::: \*\* 😃 It’s self-referential! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Azael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Azael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azael)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/54 "2003-02-10T23:36:12Z")
This thread would make for a great sticky… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/55 "2003-02-10T23:50:45Z")
Yeeesh! You don’t think **Great Debates** is sticky enough? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/56 "2003-02-10T23:54:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lamia \* > Long ago on another forum I invented a rule I modestly called “Lamia’s Law”, holding that there is nothing you could possibly say online that is so obviously wrongheaded, stupid, offensive, or dangerous that you can expect that all readers will know you don’t mean it literally, because someone somewhere else online has already said the same thing and meant it. I don’t know that I’d want this one named after myself… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/57 "2003-02-10T23:59:55Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **erislover** _ > I don’t know that I’d want this one named after myself… 😛 As advice to **Lamia** , I see your point. But it’s something I think you ought to relish as a true Discordian! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/58 "2003-02-11T00:31:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > \*\*I don’t know that I’d want this one named after myself… 😛 \*\* Hey, there’s no such thing as bad publicity as long as they spell your name right! ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/59 "2003-02-11T01:43:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > But it’s something I think you ought to relish as a true Discordian! 😛 Ha! How very appropriate indeed. 😃 [serious cap]I can see that **Lamia** ’s law is actually quite useful for how much sarcasm gets misinterpreted.[/sc] ---
**Author:** ![Persephone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755/60 "2003-02-11T02:15:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*😃 > > It’s self-referential! 🙂 \*\* That’s all well and good, \*\*Poly, \*\* but now you’re avoiding the real issue here. _You_ claimed that anything could be turned into a debate here. I asked for a cite. Now it’s up to you to back up your claim. :::ducking and running even faster, knowing full well I’m SO poking the wrong guy with a stick…::: 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gd-tutorial-for-real-people-like-me-who-want-to-participate/153755.md?page=4)