# Gee, Who'd Thunk City Governments' Would Stoop So Low? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 15, 2008, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422 "2008-04-15T09:33:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422/1 "2008-04-15T09:33:49Z")
[Cities caught tampering with traffic lights.](http://www.leftlanenews.com/six-us-cities-tamper-with-traffic-cameras-for-profit.html) > [@](#): > > Six U.S. cities have been found guilty of shortening the amber cycles below what is allowed by law on intersections equipped with cameras meant to catch red-light runners. The local governments in question have ignored the safety benefit of increasing the yellow light time and decided to install red-light cameras, shorten the yellow light duration, and collect the profits instead. [On a related note, red light cameras **cause** accidents!](http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/347197) > [@](#): > > Red-light cameras save lives but result in more crashes that cause property damage, a new study says, as drivers slam on their brakes at camera intersections to avoid tickets, causing chain-reaction crashes from behind. > > Researchers at the University of Florida College of Public Health say the findings, based partially on statistics from Toronto’s red-light cameras, show the program is flawed. “Before and after” studies of 38 red-light camera intersections in Toronto revealed collisions resulting in death or injury dropped 18.2 per cent. But property damage-only collisions rose 4 per cent. So, these retarded offspring of monkeys who had buttsex with a fishsquirrel figured that it’d be easy to make a little extra money by tampering with traffic lights. How nice of them. [At least one judge has the balls to do the right thing.](http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/22/2269.asp) > [@](#): > > The city of Chattanooga, Tennessee will refund $8800 in red light cameras tickets issued to motorists trapped by an illegally short yellow time. Municipal Court Judge Russell Bean on Monday dismissed charges against 176 vehicle owners cited by an automated ticketing machine located at Martin Luther King Boulevard and Pine Street. > > Last month, a motorist challenged his citation by insisting that the yellow light was too short and only remained lit for 3.0 seconds before changing to red and activating the camera. LaserCraft, the private vendor that runs the camera program in return for a cut of the profits, provided the judge with a computer database that asserted the yellow was 3.8 seconds at that location. Bean gave the motorist the benefit of the doubt and watched the video of the alleged violation while counting how long the light stayed yellow. > > “It didn’t seem to me that it was at four (seconds) because it would change right at three,” Bean told the Chattanooga Times Free Press. > > Bean then personally checked the intersection in question was timed at three seconds while other nearby locations had about four seconds of yellow warning. City traffic engineer John Van Winkle told Bean that “a mix up with the turn arrow” was responsible and that the bare minimum for the light should be 3.9 seconds. Judge Bean ordered 176 of the tickets issued within the first 0.9 seconds after the light turned red canceled. Now, of course, because word of this has gotten out, you can bet that _more_ folks will be challenging their tickets, thus eating into any of the ill-gotten profits and causing the cities involved to have to shell out _more_ money, as no doubt there will be a class action lawsuits filed (as well there should be). Ideally, come election time, the voters will clean house, but I’m not holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422/2 "2008-04-15T11:43:19Z")
I sympathize with your rage about the municipalities that have used these to generate another revenue stream, I do want to say that from your second cite - it seems that it could be a reasonable trade-off to reduce fatalities or injuries by nearly 20% at the cost of a 4% increase in property damaging accidents. That study alone is not sufficient, I don’t think, to convince me that stop-light cameras are a bad thing. And the potential for abuse of traffic violations is going to be there with any enforcement program. Look at the history of the [New Rome, OH](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Rome,_Ohio) speed trap. The problem wasn’t the tools that they used there, but how they were used. I have mixed feelings about the various ticketing cameras. But my reservations have a lot more to do with the uncertainty with associating a specific driver with the specific violation, than with any concerns about secondary effects from the cameras, or the potential for abuse. ---
**Author:** ![EsotericEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e274bd/32.png) [@EsotericEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EsotericEnigma)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422/3 "2008-04-15T16:25:40Z")
You’re supposed to stop at red lights. Cameras don’t cause a single accident, don’t be stupid and fall for that nonsense. Those accidents are caused by the tailgating idiot behind you that doesn’t have enough room to stop. It’s caused by the jackass driver going 25 over the speed limit who can’t be bothered to get off the gas when the light turns yellow, and if he decides to stop at all, he has to stomp his brakes to avoid stopping in the middle of the intersection. Those are the people who cause the accidents, not the cameras. How dare you expect me to stop at a red light?! I’m too important to be bothered to stop at all, get out of my way! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422/4 "2008-04-15T16:37:30Z")
Yeah, count me in as one who considers a 20% drop in injuries worth a 4% rise in property damage. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422/5 "2008-04-15T16:40:21Z")
Pretty much it. Do the speed limit, maintain safe following distance, and PAY ATTENTION. Four accidents in the last 15 years. I was stopped or stopping and was rear ended each of those times. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422/6 "2008-04-15T19:52:03Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] I sympathize with your rage about the municipalities that have used these to generate another revenue stream, I do want to say that from your second cite - it seems that it could be a reasonable trade-off to reduce fatalities or injuries by nearly 20% at the cost of a 4% increase in property damaging accidents. That study alone is not sufficient, I don’t think, to convince me that stop-light cameras are a bad thing. [/QUOTE] Traffic fatalities have been steadily dropping since they started keeping records, with improved medical technology and safer cars beng the prime reasons for this. To say for certain that red light cameras save lives, one would have to see how the decline of fatalities at those intersections compared with the general trend of decreasing fatalities. If you read the article I linked to in the OP, you’ll also note that it was only a limited area where the fatalities dropped so dramatically. In other areas, the results were a bit different. > [@](#): > > A wider look at all six Ontario municipalities with red-light cameras, including Toronto, showed that fatal and injury crashes dropped by 6.8 per cent while property damage collisions were up 18.5 per cent. [Current brake light designs aren’t exactly clear indicators as to how fast one is stopping.](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080402204950.htm) > [@](#): > > You are driving in heavy traffic. The brake lights on the car in front of you come on. Is the car slowing or is it going to stop? It slows to 25 mph and the lights go off. You drop back. The car in front of you stops suddenly! You stop just in time. The car behind you collects your rear bumper. > > “The problem is that brake lights are yes and no – on and off,” according to John Hennage of Montross, Va., a Ph.D. mechanical engineering student in Virginia Tech’s College of Engineering. “The driver behind does not know the speed at which the car in front is slowing or stopping. The only other signal would be the smoke off the tires.” > > The solution is an intelligent brake light system that communicates slowing and urgent stopping – rather than simply that the brake pedal is being touched. “A driver could be tapping his foot in time to music and the brake lights would blink. Or, a driver can rest her foot on the pedal and the lights would glow. It’s not enough information for the following driver,” said Hennage. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422/7 "2008-04-15T20:10:49Z")
[QUOTE=EsotericEnigma] You’re supposed to stop at red lights. Cameras don’t cause a single accident, don’t be stupid and fall for that nonsense. Those accidents are caused by the tailgating idiot behind you that doesn’t have enough room to stop. It’s caused by the jackass driver going 25 over the speed limit who can’t be bothered to get off the gas when the light turns yellow, and if he decides to stop at all, he has to stomp his brakes to avoid stopping in the middle of the intersection. Those are the people who cause the accidents, not the cameras. How dare you expect me to stop at a red light?! I’m too important to be bothered to stop at all, get out of my way! [/QUOTE] Two things. One, yellow lights are supposed to be sufficiently long to give enough warning - and eliminate the “zone of indecision” we have all felt - where we have to decide between running an “orange” light or perhaps having the idiot behind you plowing into you at speed. Make the yellow lights longer, and you’ll cut the zone of indecision down to nothing. Then the only people running the red lights will be the true scofflaws. That’s how it is done here in Prince William County, and we found it refreshing when we moved here. I believed in traffic cameras too once - until it was revealed that cities weren’t putting them in intersections that were the most dangerous, but ones where they could get the most fine revenue. That’s a pretty cynical game to play, and I can’t support that. ---
**Author:** ![Eben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a8b319/32.png) [@Eben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eben)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422/8 "2008-04-15T21:15:53Z")
You’re supposed to stop on yellow. Failing to account for stopping on yellow and then also stopping too quickly for a red is just plain stupid. I do it on occasion, however. -Eben ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422/9 "2008-04-15T21:22:37Z")
[QUOTE=Eben] You’re supposed to stop on yellow. Failing to account for stopping on yellow and then also stopping too quickly for a red is just plain stupid. I do it on occasion, however. -Eben [/QUOTE] Right. “Zone of indecision.” The reason the yellow light is there is that nobody thinks it is safe to slam on the brakes when the light changes. Given that, why can’t we make the light long enough to work? ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422/10 "2008-04-15T21:24:37Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] [Current brake light designs aren’t exactly clear indicators as to how fast one is stopping.](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080402204950.htm) [/QUOTE] While I don’t agree with all of what **EsotericEnigma** said upthread, I have to say that the boolean nature of brake lights wouldn’t be nearly as much of a problem if drivers would actually leave safe distances between them and the cars ahead of them. I don’t doubt that panic braking is part of the problem. I’m equally sure that it’s not the sole cause of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Fugazi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f08c70/32.png) [@Fugazi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fugazi)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422/11 "2008-04-15T21:32:52Z")
> [@](#): > > You are driving in heavy traffic. The brake lights on the car in front of you come on. Is the car slowing or is it going to stop? It slows to 25 mph and the lights go off. You drop back. The car in front of you stops suddenly! You stop just in time. The car behind you collects your rear bumper. > > “The problem is that brake lights are yes and no – on and off,” according to John Hennage of Montross, Va., a Ph.D. mechanical engineering student in Virginia Tech’s College of Engineering. “The driver behind does not know the speed at which the car in front is slowing or stopping. The only other signal would be the smoke off the tires.” > > The solution is an intelligent brake light system that communicates slowing and urgent stopping – rather than simply that the brake pedal is being touched. “A driver could be tapping his foot in time to music and the brake lights would blink. Or, a driver can rest her foot on the pedal and the lights would glow. It’s not enough information for the following driver,” said Hennage. And yet, I’ve managed to drive for 23 years without ass ending anyone. Maybe I’m a mind reader or something. Or maybe I leave enough room and pay attention. (this isn’t directed at you Tuckerfan, but at John Hennage of Montross, Va.) ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2008, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422/12 "2008-04-15T23:32:10Z")
[QUOTE=Fugazi] And yet, I’ve managed to drive for 23 years without ass ending anyone. Maybe I’m a mind reader or something. Or maybe I leave enough room and pay attention. (this isn’t directed at you Tuckerfan, but at John Hennage of Montross, Va.) [/QUOTE] I don’t think it’s needed, but I don’t think it would be a bad feature to have, either. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422/13 "2008-04-16T02:41:08Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Yeah, count me in as one who considers a 20% drop in injuries worth a 4% rise in property damage. [/QUOTE] [math/stats peeve] This really depends on the actual sizes of these quantities, no? 5 injuries down to 4 injuries is a 20% drop. $1 trillion to $1.04 trillion is a 4% rise. Is one injury worth $40 million for example? Especially if this is only a scratch? I really hate that we were only given these percentages. Sometimes journalists can be so fucking stupid about maths. [/peeve] ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422/14 "2008-04-16T14:29:50Z")
Exactly the point I was going to make **Jamaika a jamaikaiaké**. It’s been my experience when someone is throwing around percentages without providing the numbers behind them that there’s a reason. Usually that the actual numbers contradict the point they’re trying to make, or that the data pools are so small or so large that the percentages given aren’t an accurate representation of anything. Show me the numbers dammit! ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422/15 "2008-04-16T14:32:44Z")
Which is one of the reasons that I only said that the stats provided in the quote the OP provided _could_ support the exchange as being a good one. _By themselves_ they aren’t enough to support, nor to condemn traffic light camera enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422/16 "2008-04-16T15:20:46Z")
[QUOTE=danceswithcats] Pretty much it. Do the speed limit, maintain safe following distance, and PAY ATTENTION. Four accidents in the last 15 years. I was stopped or stopping and was rear ended each of those times. [/QUOTE] We were rear-ended once in which the woman that hit us actually indicated to the officer that while she saw us slowing down, she didn’t expect we would actually stop at the STOP sign. 😕 She hit us pretty hard, too and I had my kids in the back seat, the youngest is an infant carrier. We all made it out okay, but it was scary. Our car never worked the same though. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422/17 "2008-04-16T15:26:42Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] [On a related note, red light cameras **cause** accidents!](http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/347197) [/QUOTE] Ummm…no. The asshats following too closely behind the car are the ones causing the accidents. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gee-whod-thunk-city-governments-would-stoop-so-low/445422/18 "2008-04-16T15:35:58Z")
[QUOTE=Clothahump] Ummm…no. The asshats following too closely behind the car are the ones causing the accidents. [/QUOTE] Right, but **dances** ’ reasoning is the only logical way to make policy decisions. Who cares whose fault it is? All that should matter to policy makers is which policy results in fewer bad things and more good things. Yes, the asshats are at fault, but how does that help us prevent accidents?