# Geert Wilders is facing trial for Fitna **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 1, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285 "2010-02-01T20:16:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/21 "2010-02-01T23:00:40Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > However, I live in a country that values papering over fundamental differences a bit too much, so I expect Wilders to be acquitted on fairly technical grounds (which may even include that since he’s a prominent member of parliament, he should have more freedom of speech than anybody else - I doubt that kind of reasoning is strictly legal, but I’ve heard his defense is going to argue it if need be). I should add that Wilders does have immunity for anything he says in Parliament; the suit is related to the statements he made in the general media (including but not limited to the film **Fitna** ). ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/22 "2010-02-01T23:07:46Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > As far as Wilders is concerned, he’s going to play martyr for freedom of expression, victim of left-wing politicking and sharia courts. And I can’t imagine what kind of blinders one must put on to disagree with his assessment. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/23 "2010-02-01T23:12:15Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > And I can’t imagine what kind of blinders one must put on to disagree with his assessment. Wilders is not exactly in favour of freedom of speech (unless it’s his own), there’s no political party of any kind involved in the trail, and there are no sharia courts in the Netherlands. So there. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/24 "2010-02-01T23:17:02Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > [http://bigjournalism.com/rtrzupek/2010/01/27/truth-on-trial-geert-wilders-vs-dutch-thought-police/](http://bigjournalism.com/rtrzupek/2010/01/27/truth-on-trial-geert-wilders-vs-dutch-thought-police/) > > How do people feel about this limitation of Dutch free-speech? Do you think it is reasonable to prosecute someone for criticizing Islam? > > Seems to me to be a dangerous precedent. > > I also don’t believe that a similar film on Christianity would be prosecuted. It is the fear of Islamic intolerance for free-speech that seems to be the motivation here. In response to your questions: 1. I honestly don’t care about limiting hate speech. I see no value to any society in demonizing an essentially defenseless minority. 2. I think it is reasonable to prosecute someone for hate speech. Wilder’s comments are in no way an objective criticism of Islam, it’s hate speech. 3. I think analyses that start with “Something similar would not happen with Christianity” are useless because Christians aren’t minorities in these places and they are not part of a general trend of rousing hate for political gain. 4. I don’t think the Dutch fear Islamic intolerance; they fear what is essentially the intellectual equivalent of a radio shock jock from taking over their political culture. I hope he goes to prison and has to listen to Arabic and Turkish all day. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/25 "2010-02-01T23:20:22Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It is interesting, and as you know, I tend to be light on scholarship. If you have particular readings to recommend, please do. But you should recognize that it’s taught pretty much as gospel that religious infighting was a major part of the rise of freedom of speech as the Catholic/Protestant divide revolved around the sacerdotal divide in biblical interpretation. _Critical Issues in American Religious History: A Reader_ by Robert R. Mathisen is a collection of essays and primary sources that might be helpful to you. It won’t make you an expert or anything but it’ll give you an idea what various academics are thinking. With regards to free speech. I had always thought it had more to do with the ability to criticize the government than with direct religious beliefs. > [@](#): > > It’d be hard for me to get anywhere near your level of scholarship on the subject to be sure, but I have noticed a trend recently to try and redact religion’s role in history in order to advance the dogma that religion really isn’t all that important. It’s not a recent trend in Academia it’s been a pretty long trend. In the last 30 years or so historians have been a bit more interested in how religion shaped social and political life here in the United States. Of course, religion is a hot potato and will steer clear on most things that could be controversial. I’m pretty sure my textbook mentioned the Puritans but I’m hard pressed to remember the Great Awakening, any serious discussion of John Brown’s religious convictions, or anything more than a passing reference to black churches of the Civil Rights movement. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/26 "2010-02-01T23:43:43Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > In response to your questions: > > 1. I honestly don’t care about limiting hate speech. I see no value to any society in demonizing an essentially defenseless minority. Two questions: a. Who has the right - in any society - to decide whether any speech has any “value”? b. How are Muslims “defenseless”? Do they not vote? Are they not free to speak? Does the police not protect them? How are they any more defenseless than anyone else in the Netherlands? ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/27 "2010-02-01T23:48:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > a. Who has the right - in any society - to decide whether any speech has any “value”? The question is not whether any speech has value, it’s about what kind of potential damage are you going to stop/allow while at the same time guaranteeing a free society. Agreed with your general thrust, though. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/28 "2010-02-01T23:52:16Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > In response to your questions: > > 1. I honestly don’t care about limiting hate speech. I see no value to any society in demonizing an essentially defenseless minority. Defenseless minority? Really? So is every criticism of the Koran and political Islam ‘hate speech’? I personally think there is a point at which we must recognize an incompatibility in worldviews and as such see which world view cedes ground to which. I see this as Western values ceding to Islam where any criticism is considered blasphemy. > [@](#): > > 1. I think it is reasonable to prosecute someone for hate speech. Wilder’s comments are in no way an objective criticism of Islam, it’s hate speech. Would you care to bring in specifically what you believe is hate speech that he has said? I don’t disagree with you, just asking for some grist for the mill. Personally I think hate speech should be protected, but that’s just me. > [@](#): > > 1. I think analyses that start with “Something similar would not happen with Christianity” are useless because Christians aren’t minorities in these places and they are not part of a general trend of rousing hate for political gain. So hate speech is ok as long as the target is not the minority? > [@](#): > > 1. I don’t think the Dutch fear Islamic intolerance; they fear what is essentially the intellectual equivalent of a radio shock jock from taking over their political culture. ‘Taking over their political culture’? If that’s the case then perhaps the Dutch political culture is very weak, and that should be looked into. From my American perspective a culture that is not healthy enough to handle its cranks is a sick culture. > [@](#): > > I hope he goes to prison and has to listen to Arabic and Turkish all day. So he should lose his freedom for holding unpopular opinions? Would he have to listen to Arabic and Turkish music all day in prison because those ethnic minorities are more likely to be in prison in the Netherlands? Or is that just your wishing some kind of tongue-in-cheek ill upon him? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/29 "2010-02-01T23:58:55Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Free speech arose in the West as a result of bloody religious wars between Catholics and Protestants and can be directly linked to the enshrining of it as a value in early American Legal documents. You know, that whole First Amendment thing. They just passed a bill in the House to censor Arab satellite news channels in the US. [http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-2278](http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-2278) Which is strange because the Arab news channels always have either or both Israeli and US spokesmen on their shows whenever they’re discussing anything relevant to those countries, while I have yet to see a Hamas or Iranian government spokesman on US TV. It’ll be interesting to see how much coverage the sections of the US media who always jump on any issue like Wilders, or indeed the US media in toto give to this prospective censorship. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/30 "2010-02-02T00:00:41Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > They just passed a bill in the House to censor Arab satellite news channels in the US. > > [http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-2278](http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-2278) > > Which is strange because the Arab news channels always have either or both Israeli and US spokesmen on their shows whenever they’re discussing anything relevant to those countries, while I have yet to see a Hamas or Iranian government spokesman on US TV. > > It’ll be interesting to see how much coverage the sections of the US media who always jump on any issue like Wilders, or indeed the US media in toto give to this prospective censorship. I am personally against it. And I care more about this than Wilders, because Wilders is in the Netherlands and it doesn’t affect me. Only it doesn’t seem to do what you claim it does. It’s not censorship. It’s monitoring. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/31 "2010-02-02T00:12:38Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I am personally against it. And I care more about this than Wilders, because Wilders is in the Netherlands and it doesn’t affect me. > > Only it doesn’t seem to do what you claim it does. It’s not censorship. It’s monitoring. Yes, monitoring. The 400 Arab TV channels threatened by it don’t seem to think so. And when it comes to having experience of being monitored, those guys are the _experts._ They’ve got America, Israel and their own governments monitoring them, not to mention locking their journalists up etc. Don’t we still have some Al Jazeera people in Guantanamo? ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/32 "2010-02-02T00:15:56Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Yes, monitoring. The 400 Arab TV channels threatened by it don’t seem to think so. And when it comes to having experience of being monitored, those guys are the _experts._ They’ve got America, Israel and their own governments monitoring them, not to mention locking their journalists up etc. Don’t we still have some Al Jazeera people in Guantanamo? I for one wouldn’t mind if you take this into another thread. It’s hard enough keeping Dutch politics straight without considering the US. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/33 "2010-02-02T00:16:17Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > I for one wouldn’t mind if you take this into another thread. It’s had enough keeping Dutch politics straight without considering the US. Yes, I was about to say, that it’s another argument. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/34 "2010-02-02T00:18:14Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > They just passed a bill in the House to censor Arab satellite news channels in the US. > > [http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-2278](http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-2278) That’s not actually what the bill does. As the Congressional Research Service says, the bill: > [@](#): > > Directs the President to submit an annual report to Congress regarding anti-American incitement to violence in the Middle East. Requires that such report include a country-by-country list of media outlets and satellite companies that engage in such incitement. And the bill wants a report on the Hamas owned Al-Aqsa TV, the Hezbollah owned al-Manar TV, and the Association of Muslim Scholars’ owned al-Rafidayn, not just “Arab satellite news channels”. Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations, and the Association of Muslim Scholars, while officially condemning terrorism, covertly endorses it. All three channels are on the US Desiginated Global Terrorist Entities list. Al Jazeera and the other 400 Arab TV stations that aren’t owned by terrorist groups aren’t going to be monitored by this bill. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/35 "2010-02-02T00:23:50Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > They just passed a bill in the House to censor Arab satellite news channels in the US. > > [http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-2278](http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-2278) Where does it say the US government will censor Arab satellite news? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/36 "2010-02-02T00:30:15Z")
Can we please get back on track and talk about Geert Wilders rather than **Dick Dastardly** ’s inability to read his own cite? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/37 "2010-02-02T00:57:11Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Can we please get back on track and talk about Geert Wilders rather than **Dick Dastardly** ’s inability to read his own cite? Fine, inciting to riot is a vague law if applied to criticism. When a political cartoon criticizing religious violence causes death threats from around the world it makes the concept of inciting to riot impossible to gauge against freedom of speech. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/38 "2010-02-02T00:58:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Where does it say the US government will censor Arab satellite news? Not just censor it, potentially shut channels down. Go google it. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/39 "2010-02-02T01:00:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Fine, inciting to riot is a vague law if applied to criticism. When a political cartoon criticizing religious violence causes death threats from around the world it makes the concept of inciting to riot impossible to gauge against freedom of speech. You appear to be pulling facts out of your arse. Wilders is not as far as I know a cartoonist, nor is incitement to riot part of the trial. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285/40 "2010-02-02T01:01:09Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > That’s not actually what the bill does. As the Congressional Research Service says, the bill: > > And the bill wants a report on the Hamas owned Al-Aqsa TV, the Hezbollah owned al-Manar TV, and the Association of Muslim Scholars’ owned al-Rafidayn, not just “Arab satellite news channels”. Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations, and the Association of Muslim Scholars, while officially condemning terrorism, covertly endorses it. All three channels are on the US Desiginated Global Terrorist Entities list. > > Al Jazeera and the other 400 Arab TV stations that aren’t owned by terrorist groups aren’t going to be monitored by this bill. Furthermore, H.R. 2278 calls for the U.S. to “designate as Specially Designated Global Terrorists satellite providers that knowingly and willingly contract with entities designated as Specially Designated Global Terrorists.” The [list of such SDGT’s](http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/sdn/index.shtml) is currently some 443 pages long, and includes such Arab political figures as Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal and the influential Islamist figure Yusuf al-Qaradawi. Every serious news organization in the Arab world airs interviews with Meshaal, and Qaradawi is a fixture on al-Jazeera, which is both by far the most popular Arab satellite TV station and was conspicuously not named in the text of H.R. 2278. If simply airing interviews with someone like Meshaal becomes grounds for labeling a TV station a Specially Designated Global Terrorist, then literally almost every single Arab TV station would be so designated — because no serious Arab TV station could cover the news in the region while ignoring Hamas, Hezbollah, or other figures on the list. [http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/01/25/arabs\_reject\_us\_crackdown\_on\_arab\_satellite\_tv](http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/01/25/arabs_reject_us_crackdown_on_arab_satellite_tv) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geert-wilders-is-facing-trial-for-fitna/527285.md?page=3)