# Gender Abolition **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2018, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345 "2018-09-14T17:13:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/41 "2018-09-14T21:43:55Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The OP referenced Starship Troopers; I assume they were talking about the co-ed shower scene. The notion that this gender erasure might somehow make casual coed nudity acceptable is definitely on the table. An interesting question no doubt. I just don’t buy it. The OP made it clear that biology remains in effect. As long as male and female are biologically distinct, there will be a _something_ that makes gender erasure, and therefore, “casual coed nudity” impossible. I am not saying that humans can’t behave while in the presence of a naked person of the opposite sex, of course they can and should. But that doesn’t mean everyone can ever be 100% comfortable with it. Respect and decency is one thing, being nonchalant is another. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/42 "2018-09-14T21:44:01Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The OP referenced Starship Troopers; I assume they were talking about the co-ed shower scene. The notion that this gender erasure might somehow make casual coed nudity acceptable is definitely on the table. Casual co-ed nudity is only a “problem” in cultures where nudity is looked upon negatively. It is **definitely** learned behavior, if you’ve ever raised a significant number of boys (who will gleefully streak until you socialize them out of it). Admittedly, _most_ cultures nowadays have strong provisions against it, but that certainly wasn’t true when you examine the now extinct pagan cultures of Europe or indeed any “primitive” society. I mean, have you forgotten all that time you spent as a kid trying to find that national geographic cover with all the tribal ladies with large… grass skirts? Now, I don’t think that gender erasure will lead to the shower scene so to speak, because the idea of “privacy” which is relatively new in history is so ingrained on us. Our environment prettymuch maximizes privacy and our culture reinforces it. Hell, it’s **illegal** to buck the trend. But nudists do it without much issue, and really, if you and a few good friends go to a nude beach the awkwardness of it goes away within minutes. I wouldn’t know from experience of course… I’m too busy browsing the library for my favorite magazines 😃 ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/43 "2018-09-14T21:53:42Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Casual co-ed nudity is only a “problem” in cultures where nudity is looked upon negatively. It is **definitely** learned behavior, if you’ve ever raised a significant number of boys (who will gleefully streak until you socialize them out of it) I would quibble with this. Of course casual nudity won’t be a “problem” among people who enjoy looking and to be looked at (i.e nudists, pagan societies). But the bottom line is, there are a lot of people who do not want to be seen naked, and not just for fear or prudish reasons either. And having been a boy myself with a brother, and now raising boys myself, I disagree about them having to be socialized out of casual nudity or streaking. At a certain point you become more self conscious, and while you may not have a problem necessarily being naked with a group of guys, you would be very uncomfortable in the presence of girls. That’s normal human development. One of my sons is 5 and he will run around the house naked without a care in the world, but if we are outside, he’s afraid to change his shirt because someone might see him. We haven’t done anything to make him feel uncomfortable, and we are actually having to socialize him that it’s ok for him to be seen without a shirt. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/44 "2018-09-14T21:56:25Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Casual co-ed nudity is only a “problem” in cultures where nudity is looked upon negatively. […] > > But nudists do it without much issue, and really, if you and a few good friends go to a nude beach the awkwardness of it goes away within minutes. Agreed. As another anecdata point, I spent a year in a college dorm with co-ed multi-user bathrooms including what might be called “co-ed optional” group showers. That is, there was one large multi-showerhead shower area, no separate stalls, and people already in the shower could either request “[my gender] only till I get out, please” or say “come on in anyone, I don’t care”. Most of us by the end of the first week or so didn’t care at all, and AFAIK nobody used the co-ed nudity situation as an opportunity to harass anybody else or even for consensual slippery fun. (Or at least the consensual slippery funsters were very discreet. 🙂 Hmmm, that does suggest that there could have been harassers as well who were equally discreet. ☹ ) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/45 "2018-09-14T21:58:32Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Casual co-ed nudity is only a “problem” in cultures where nudity is looked upon negatively. It is **definitely** learned behavior, if you’ve ever raised a significant number of boys (who will gleefully streak until you socialize them out of it). Admittedly, _most_ cultures nowadays have strong provisions against it, but that certainly wasn’t true when you examine the now extinct pagan cultures of Europe or indeed any “primitive” society. I mean, have you forgotten all that time you spent as a kid trying to find that national geographic cover with all the tribal ladies with large… grass skirts? > Now, I don’t think that gender erasure will lead to the shower scene so to speak, because the idea of “privacy” which is relatively new in history is so ingrained on us. Our environment prettymuch maximizes privacy and our culture reinforces it. Hell, it’s **illegal** to buck the trend. > > But nudists do it without much issue, and really, if you and a few good friends go to a nude beach the awkwardness of it goes away within minutes. I wouldn’t know from experience of course… I’m too busy browsing the library for my favorite magazines 😃 Sure, the nudity aversion is learned - but it’s a completely separate thing from most other kinds of gendered prejudices. Or at least I think is is - I’m still not sure what exactly the OP is proposing will happen. Escalating the strangeness, the OP mentions losing gendered pronouns. Were we to lose gender awareness I would actually assume the pronouns would revert(?) to their strictly biological meanings; for use of the terms to go away _entirely_ I would assume we’d have to lose our genitalia as well. Or maybe not? Boats don’t have genitalia and we still pretend they have gender… Long and short of it I’m still not sure what’s under discussion here, exactly. And there’s a part of me that still strongly suspects that the actual discussion here is just an angry response to being told to call somebody who at one point had a penis by female pronouns. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/46 "2018-09-14T22:01:11Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > At a certain point you become more self conscious, and while you may not have a problem necessarily being naked with a group of guys, you would be very uncomfortable in the presence of girls. That’s normal human development. What? I don’t generally go to nude beaches with my guy friends… And no, that’s not “normal” that’s **you projecting your cultural biases** , which is fine, but you have **no idea** what “normal” is for humans outside of culture. Your entire life experience presumably shaped by having been raised in a society that inherited a lot of its culture from either Victorian england, the puritans, or the equally sensitive catholics assuming you live anywhere in the West. You have to look _outside_ your culture. > [@](#): > > One of my sons is 5 and he will run around the house naked without a care in the world, but if we are outside, he’s afraid to change his shirt because someone might see him. We haven’t done anything to make him feel uncomfortable, and we are actually having to socialize him that it’s ok for him to be seen without a shirt. You have not _consciously_ done anything, maybe, but you have done plenty to subconsciously socialize him. It’s **impossible** for you not to have, socialization is _constant_ and operates with or without intent. He also receives socialization from his environment and from society at large. The fact that he lives most of his life segregated from neighbors and individuals he doesn’t know is actually **very strange**. Houses are not natural things after all. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/47 "2018-09-14T22:08:09Z")
How did this get to naked co-ed showers? Most public restrooms don’t have shower stalls, so you don’t have to worry about walking in on a guy showering when you go to McDonalds. If you’re worried that a woman might see a transwoman’s penis, she’s not going to be using a public urinal in a woman’s bathroom, because women’s bathrooms typically don’t have urinals. Your solution is to pass a law saying a transwoman has to use the men’s bathroom? Why exactly? Who are you protecting? Yeah, yeah. You’re worried that a rapist will put on a dress claim to be transgendered and hang out in the women’s bathroom, and there won’t be a damn thing we can do about it, thanks Obama. You wanna know why I don’t have gendered bathrooms in my house? It’s not because I know for sure that no rapist will visit my house and use the restroom. It’s that the restroom is single-use. Someone wants to pee, they go in and close the door and do their business, and they don’t have to worry about rapists or Peeping Toms because the door is closed. The same thing can happen in public restrooms. Close the door, and no one can see you pee. Win-win for everyone, except the flashers and Peeping Toms. Bathroom stalls with doors. They exist in lots of places! ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/48 "2018-09-14T22:11:32Z")
I’d be happy if we could just come up with a gender neutral third person singular pronoun. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/49 "2018-09-14T22:17:07Z")
> [@j666](#): > > I’d be happy if we could just come up with a gender neutral third person singular pronoun. They. Yep, that puppy’s singular now. English FTW! ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/50 "2018-09-14T22:17:30Z")
Uh, hey you? No gender there. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/51 "2018-09-14T22:21:49Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > But _men_ are using them, therefore male restrooms have people peeing out in the open. Is it mandatory that you pee in a urinal? Don’t think so. I have, in a slight emergency had to use a male restroom. People seeing me pee was the least of my worries. That place stank. You guys know women’s restrooms don’t smell like that, don’t you? It was really bad. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2018, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/52 "2018-09-15T01:21:57Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > But _men_ are using them, therefore male restrooms have people peeing out in the open. I’ve been to a coffee shop in San Francisco with several unisex bathrooms with a single facility each instead of two bathrooms with multiple facilities. Which is just like most homes. Problem solved. They put the sinks outside to be shared, saving space. The whole bathroom problem is just tradition. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2018, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/53 "2018-09-15T03:32:46Z")
> [@Mumberthax](#): > > That’s one example. Treat men and women the same way. We just finished [a Russian novel of a thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=861808) where we decided that, unlike men, women don’t want to know about men’s sexual interests and imaginings. Now they do? Or do men not want to hear about such things either, but we’re in denial? Ignoring gender is social suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Mumberthax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea5d25/32.png) [@Mumberthax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mumberthax)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2018, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/54 "2018-09-15T04:56:50Z")
For the record: I have no problems respecting a TG person’s name, identity, and pronouns; viz.: My name is Mumberthax and my pronouns are they/them. Or, try this: “My name is Caitlyn and my pronouns are she/her.”. I’ve already put up a bunch of links on radfem resources. No offense, but it’s Friday and I’m all partied out to do anything other than go to bed. I’m also drunk off my ass from doing Jagerbombs and bumping it to vintage Def Leppard tracks (yeah, I’m an old fart). Maybe I’ll expound more later, but for now, fuck it. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2018, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/55 "2018-09-15T05:58:16Z")
From what I’ve seen of the genuine radfem sites, gender abolition is just the start of the crazy. I like to understand people but there’s not much value in trying to understand a position held by a tiny minority that wasn’t arrived at by logic. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2018, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/56 "2018-09-15T06:14:52Z")
I don’t know about trans men being homophobic lesbians, but gender dysphoria and issues with gender identity are SELFphobia. To feel or believe that you (just for example - this works equally both ways) are a man who was born as a woman, it is necessarily because you have both of the limiting and flawed social ideas “A man is only…” and “A woman is only…”. If you did not have those two flawed and limiting ideas, you would correctly guess that “woman” automatically includes whatever characteristics you happen to have, because you are a woman. Gender identity is indeed a product of patriarchy, and of matriarchy for that matter. Gender identity is a completely irrelevant topic for everyone, except as far as to reveal it as a cruel hoax. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2018, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/57 "2018-09-15T06:21:48Z")
> [@Mumberthax](#): > > I’ve read some opinion pieces from the radfem community regarding gender abolition. All gender roles abolished. Unisex everything. The whole ‘good girls’ and ‘real men’ crapola goes into the dustbin of history, never to return. We all play by the same cultural rules, regardless of our biological sex. > > Now that gender is off the table, what happens? Would this lead to the collapse of patriarchal rule, thus leading to women’s liberation? Would gender dysphoria still exist? Would we still have gendered pronouns? How about separate bathrooms? Would it be like _Starship Troopers_, or just a unisex version of what we already have today? > > In case you’re wondering, I really am asking. I agree that gender roles are bullshit, designed by the patriarchy to keep women oppressed. I just want to know what you all think about gender abolition and its consequences. Abolishing gender is impossible. There are many hard-wired, born, innate differences between men and women. No amount of emperor’s-new-clothes-ing will make them go away. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2018, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/58 "2018-09-15T06:28:38Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Is it mandatory that you pee in a urinal? Don’t think so. I have, in a slight emergency had to use a male restroom. People seeing me pee was the least of my worries. That place stank. You guys know women’s restrooms don’t smell like that, don’t you? It was really bad. In my experience, men’s rooms don’t generally smell. And I’m pretty sure my experience is broader than yours. Second, [women’s rooms are dirtier](https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/30086/are-womens-public-restrooms-dirtier-and-or-more-bacteria-laden-than-the-mens-r). As far as the topic of the subthread: Yes, urinals are a problem, in that they’re either mostly or completely bereft of dividers, but men don’t usually want other men to see their genitals, so we’re pretty… huddled, if you get my drift… even if there are only other men in the room. Also, since women generally aren’t going to use urinals, they won’t be in position to see much of anything anyway. As far as the topic of the main thread: Some aspects of gender are innate. Otherwise, trans people wouldn’t exist. (Yes, this is what makes TERFs such angry fucks: They can’t accept the idea that _any_ aspect of gender is innate, so trans people are walking, talking Political Incorrectness as far as they’re concerned.) But _how much_ is innate, and _which specific aspects_? Aye, there’s the rub, and _that_ will keep actual academics occupied for the foreseeable future. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2018, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/59 "2018-09-15T06:42:30Z")
Your cite actually says men’s restrooms smell worse. I wasn’t taking bacterial samples, at the time. I was using my Mom nose and that restroom flunked, big time. I believe it’s the urinals that were making the awful smell. Whoever was supposed to clean them should get fired. ---
**Author:** ![Mumberthax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea5d25/32.png) [@Mumberthax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mumberthax)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2018, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345/60 "2018-09-15T18:47:34Z")
This thread started about gender abolition, and it ended up with a woman taking a leak in the male shitter. I like that. Perhaps there’s some foreshadowing going on here? Make of that what you will…just remember, YOU came to that conclusion without any help from me. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-abolition/821345.md?page=4)