# Gender and Sex: a constant irritation **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 29, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-and-sex-a-constant-irritation/512032 "2009-09-29T21:25:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Orange\_Skinner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3be4f8/32.png) [@Orange\_Skinner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orange_Skinner)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-and-sex-a-constant-irritation/512032/21 "2009-09-30T18:32:59Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > And at that point, what’s the use of even talking about Gender at all? I would say instead “Sexual Identity,” another common term, and more descriptive. Sorry, but “sexual identity” is similarly nebulous. Do you mean it as being synonymous with “sexual orientation” i.e, gay, straight, bisexual, or something along that continuum, or do you mean it as a degree to which one identifies with being male or female, and either congruent or incongruent internally with one’s physical sex (as in transexualism)? If the former, you’re completely mistaken. Sexual orientation does not equal gender, which in turn, does not equal biological sex (a man or a woman can be feminine, masculine, androgynous, or neither, and none of those identities serves to automatically “sign them up” for a given sexual orientation). If you meant the latter, I’d say that’s a decent term, though not one I’ve heard commonly used. Even still, that’s NOT the same thing as gender. As in, I may genetically/physically be female, but identify internally as a male…but I may still be feminine or androgynous in many of my behaviors. In short, I think you’re trying to create a label for a whole other construct, rather than come up with a better one for “gender.” And the definition of gender as it applies to people is fine…people just use it improperly all the time to the degree that a lot of people don’t know what it actually means. The definitions of all of these constructs are actually pretty simple, but through misuse, inconsistency, and in-exposure, they’ve become almost impossible to deal with unless operationally defined from the outset. This is especially difficult when trying to have a discussion centered on their differences. For example, my thesis dealt with _feminine gender identity_, that is, possessing some stereotypically feminine qualities, as opposed to simply _being a member of the female sex_, being more predictive of certain types of psychopathology. Females are more likely to be diagnosed with depression and most anxiety disorders over men nearly 2:1, but no one has done an adequate job of explaining why this is (lots of theories, none that account entirely or in combination for the discrepancies). I countered that it’s possible that while femininity and female usually go hand in hand, they don’t \*have \*to…and that it is being feminine (and not just female) that predisposes one for these conditions. I had to devote two pages of my thesis defining sex and gender to an audience consisting entirely of professors and/or PhD level clinicians, and how their misuse has led, in part, to this somewhat obvious confound. Needless to say, i find the misuse of the terms every bit as annoying, if not more so. Orange Skinner, Genetic Female, Androgynously Gendered, Bisexual, (who mentally doesn’t really internally identify as being “female” but doesn’t feel so in-congruent about it as to be considered a transexual, either). ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-and-sex-a-constant-irritation/512032/22 "2009-09-30T20:07:58Z")
I would respond by noting that sexual mental traits are predominantly statistical to the extent that I don’t wish to try to distinguish them. I don’t consider it useful. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-and-sex-a-constant-irritation/512032/23 "2009-09-30T21:43:05Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > … snip … > > SEX != GENDER, and GENDER != SEX > > I’m not sure when this crap got started, and it may be very old indeed, but it seems to me that **it got popularized in the last 20-30 years**. > … snip … > _huff_ > > _puff_ > > _wheeze_ > > OK, I’m done. (bolding mine) What ever happened to the notion that languages are fluid, organic creations that change and adapt to new cultural circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-and-sex-a-constant-irritation/512032/24 "2009-09-30T22:23:07Z")
If it hasn’t been pointed out already, in linguistics gender can be much more than male and female. In some languages it can be animate/inanimate, or long and thin vs. flat, or many other classifications. ---
**Author:** ![Orange\_Skinner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3be4f8/32.png) [@Orange\_Skinner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orange_Skinner)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-and-sex-a-constant-irritation/512032/25 "2009-10-01T17:30:28Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I would respond by noting that sexual mental traits are predominantly statistical to the extent that I don’t wish to try to distinguish them. I don’t consider it useful. Me neither., if you’re talking about cognition, like visio-spatial ability, hand-eye-co-ordination, etc. Plus, just because there are biological brain differences and quantifiable differences in cognitive performance on tasks between men versus women, it doesn’t mean these are genetic or “sex-linked” in origin…socialization as a male or a female in a given society may play just as much, or more, of a role in the development of such differences, minuscule as they be. FTR, in my earlier post, I was using not using “mental” to refer to cognitive ability, but to the extent that one inwardly feels that they are in the right or wrong body…i.e., how much a woman feels like a woman, or the degree to what her inner conception of how her body should look and how it does look (an in-congruence in which could be defined as transexualism). ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-and-sex-a-constant-irritation/512032/26 "2009-10-01T18:44:43Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > What ever happened to the notion that languages are fluid, organic creations that change and adapt to new cultural circumstances? The fact that changes happen != the idea that they are neccessarily good. Numerous words have been utterly ruined to no useful purpose because people with fuzzy heads insisted on using them. The word 'Gentleman" comes to mind. > [@suranyi](#): > > If it hasn’t been pointed out already, in linguistics gender can be much more than male and female. In some languages it can be animate/inanimate, or long and thin vs. flat, or many other classifications. As long as they keep it that way - to literature discussion - I don’t much care. [quote=FTR, in my earlier post, I was using not using “mental” to refer to cognitive ability, but to the extent that one inwardly feels that they are in the right or wrong body…i.e., how much a woman feels like a woman, or the degree to what her inner conception of how her body should look and how it does look (an in-congruence in which could be defined as transexualism). [/quote] That’s the problem. I don’t consider that even worth attempting to categorize. I don’t really care if somebody “feels they think like a woman”, because it’s arbitary. I only care about what function they can provide. And not even much, at that. All of that is intrinsically unknowable and not particularly relevant to life. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-and-sex-a-constant-irritation/512032/27 "2009-10-01T19:56:03Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > While this is true to some degree, it’s not very relevant. Few people are distnctly intersexed. XXY is just male, as XXX is just female - I’m not a strict genetic determinist. There are a few people who have other “arrangements”, but they usually fall roughly within one or the other pactically. Except for there’s a [third gender in India.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)) They get their own box to check on official forms and everything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-and-sex-a-constant-irritation/512032.md?page=1)