# Gender discrimination: What endeavors are closed to men? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 27, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725 "2014-11-27T00:01:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/41 "2014-11-27T15:36:54Z")
Not terribly long ago I applied for a couple positions as receptionist for a law firm and in motel housecleaning and was told “we’re really looking for a women; men just aren’t good at this job”. But that could just be me. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/42 "2014-11-27T16:18:21Z")
In every place I’ve ever worked, the human resources person was a woman. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone refer to their company’s “HR man”, it’s always the “HR woman”. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/43 "2014-11-27T16:36:53Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Also I believe that in strict Muslim countries a midwife has to be female as an unrelated male is not allowed to touch or see a women even for medical need. This is **Saudi Arabia** not even strict countries, it is a Saudi idiocy for the Islam like the Judaism forbids that saving life be impeded by only tradition, it is preservation of life which primes over all. The islamic world does not equal Saudis. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/44 "2014-11-27T17:04:58Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > This is **Saudi Arabia** not even strict countries, it is a Saudi idiocy for the Islam like the Judaism forbids that saving life be impeded by only tradition, it is preservation of life which primes over all. The islamic world does not equal Saudis. I am not able to understand this statement. Are you saying that not allowing men to be midwives is a peculiarity of Saudi Arabia that isn’t part of most interpretations of Islam? ---
**Author:** ![Bert\_Nobbins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@Bert\_Nobbins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bert_Nobbins)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/45 "2014-11-27T17:12:26Z")
This gives a summary of primary school teacher male/female ratios around the world: [http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.PRM.TCHR.FE.ZS](http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.PRM.TCHR.FE.ZS) Note 99% female in Belarus, and 98% female in the Czech Republic. Britain clocks in at 88%. It may not be _de jure,_ but it’s certainly _de facto_. Given the atmosphere in Britain these days, you aren’t going to get many men saying they want to work with children. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/46 "2014-11-27T17:41:33Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > I am not able to understand this statement. Are you saying that not allowing men to be midwives is a peculiarity of Saudi Arabia that isn’t part of most interpretations of Islam? What I am saying is that this is a Saudi idea, not a general islamic idea. The gynecologist of my sisters in laws are male, etc. etc. This is not unusual anywhere in the arab region, although just like in the west there are many women who prefer women for such care. To have male medical care for women is not haram except to the saudi and the extreme salafine. The westerners should stop mistaking stories about Saudi arabia for a general idea about islamic practice, they are the ones who are the divergent ones and their practices are not usual, and are makrouh to most people. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/47 "2014-11-27T18:23:06Z")
Game show “hostess”, like Vanna White. ---
**Author:** ![kstarnes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4da419/32.png) [@kstarnes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kstarnes)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/48 "2014-11-27T18:57:54Z")
Sub-par or washed-out male athletes are not allowed to compete in women’s professional sports. If they were allowed, they would likely obliterate even the best female competition. It’s a protectionist racket (pun intended.) Put the worst male player against the best female player, see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/49 "2014-11-27T19:22:34Z")
> [@kstarnes](#): > > Sub-par or washed-out male athletes are not allowed to compete in women’s professional sports. If they were allowed, they would likely obliterate even the best female competition. It’s a protectionist racket (pun intended.) Put the worst male player against the best female player, see what happens. Tell Bobby Riggs that. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/50 "2014-11-27T19:39:59Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > The westerners should stop mistaking stories about Saudi arabia for a general idea about islamic practice, they are the ones who are the divergent ones and their practices are not usual, and are makrouh to most people. I would like a cite that midwife or gynegologist can be male in Pakistan or Afghanistan. What country are you in? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/51 "2014-11-27T20:26:27Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > I would like a cite that midwife or gynegologist can be male in Pakistan or Afghanistan. Where did I speak of Pakistan or Afghanistan? Or is this just the stereotypes as an attempt to hide the fact the claim came from no knowledge? I am not Pakistani and AK84 can reply better, but it is very trivial for you to see that the national[**Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of Pakistan** ( **SOGP** )](http://www.sogp.org/officebeares.html) includes men and women. This is of course typical of the entire Islamic world despite the gross and badly informed stereotypes. Now what fundamental citations will you give to support the incorrect information you have provided? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/52 "2014-11-27T23:07:33Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I don’t follow cheerleading, but when I was in high school back in the 1990s I was acquainted with a guy who was on the cheerleading squad at another school. It’s my recollection that it wasn’t that unusual to have a few male cheerleaders on high school or college squads back then, and the university where I work now has several male cheerleaders on its squad. The year after I graduated, the head cheerleader at our high school was a guy. It was an elected position, like President of the School. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/53 "2014-11-28T07:51:27Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Where did I speak of Pakistan or Afghanistan? Or is this just the stereotypes as an attempt to hide the fact the claim came from no knowledge? > > Now what fundamental citations will you give to support the incorrect information you have provided? I said “strict muslim” in my previous post. Sure there may be male Gynaecologists in Karachi, in the modern liberal part of Pakistan but I doubt very much there any in the North West Frontier Provinces. Are you denying that some muslim fathers would not let their daughters see a male gynaecologist? Orthodox Judaism also has very strict segregation of the sexes so the same issue would arise there as well. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/54 "2014-11-28T12:10:54Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > 132 male midwives out of 20,000 in the UK. Strange that, anecdotally, many women who are happy with a male gynecologist prefer a female midwife. Apparently, there were male midwives in Britain as early as the 1700’s, and a great of hullabaloo about them. It’s a big deal in _Tristram Shandy_ - the wife wants a female midwife, the husband wants a male midwife, real-life male midwives are name-dropped, hilarity ensues. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/55 "2014-11-28T13:23:50Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > I said “strict muslim” in my previous post. Sure there may be male Gynaecologists in Karachi, in the modern liberal part of Pakistan but I doubt very much there any in the North West Frontier Provinces. > Are you denying that some muslim fathers would not let their daughters see a male gynaecologist? > > Orthodox Judaism also has very strict segregation of the sexes so the same issue would arise there as well. :rolleyes: Please stop pulling things out of your ass. For your information, the largest hospital in Peshawar has several male gynae on staff. [http://www.lrh.gov.pk/index.php/faculty-members.html](http://www.lrh.gov.pk/index.php/faculty-members.html) This is a culture where the status of doctors is very high, where what a doctor says is accepted uncritically by patients and family. Male gynae would have no problems. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/56 "2014-11-28T14:23:27Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > What I am saying is that this is a Saudi idea, not a general islamic idea. The gynecologist of my sisters in laws are male, etc. etc. This is not unusual anywhere in the arab region, although just like in the west there are many women who prefer women for such care. To have male medical care for women is not haram except to the saudi and the extreme salafine. > > The westerners should stop mistaking stories about Saudi arabia for a general idea about islamic practice, they are the ones who are the divergent ones and their practices are not usual, and are makrouh to most people. The problem doesn’t so much stem from “stories about Saudi arabia” as from immigrant muslim males being cunts about their womens’ medical access. Is it yet another case of “one moron being a loud asshole is heard more than a million decent people being silent”? Yes. It’s still something which stems from local news, not international ones. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/57 "2014-11-28T14:42:05Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The problem doesn’t so much stem from “stories about Saudi arabia” as from immigrant muslim males being cunts about their womens’ medical access. Is it yet another case of “one moron being a loud asshole is heard more than a million decent people being silent”? Yes. It’s still something which stems from local news, not international ones. I’d have to agree with this, for the very small sample size identified as “WhyNot’s immigrant Muslim patient population.” Sample size is roughly 18, over a 3 year span. Every single one was adamant that ALL heath care providers we arranged be women. Home nurse? Not a problem. (That was me.) Home CNA? Yeah, sure, got lots of women, only one man doing that work in our company anyhow, and he is, thankfully, almost always full up with his schedule, so we can accommodate that request without trampling on anti-discrimination issues in the workplace. Physical Therapist? Eeek. They’re mostly men in our biz. So, and we’d be SO busted if this were to get out, we often have to delay staffing for almost 2 weeks until a female PT who makes home visits can be found with room in her schedule. Home doctor? Yeah, that we can’t make happen. We have to insist that a male doctor go out because we don’t know any female home physicians who take Medicare, and the MD name has to be on the visit note, but we have one who can bring a female PA to do the physical exam, and that has mostly worked. Subsequent visits can be done by the (female) PA alone, but one needs to be done by the MD. We really really want to make our patients comfortable, but there are real legal issues with staffing based on gender. No one of any other religion in my 3 years of doing this has refused staffing based on gender. So, yes, I do now have something of a prejudice in this area. It was something I never considered before I started seeing Muslim patients. But I do now expect that when we get a referral for an immigrant Muslim woman, we’re going to have staffing issues. That’s not based on news reports, that’s based on an 18/18 track record with my own patients. They’re lovely, lovely women, but they’re a pain in the butt when it comes to staffing their cases. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/58 "2014-11-28T16:26:21Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > In every place I’ve ever worked, the human resources person was a woman. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone refer to their company’s “HR man”, it’s always the “HR woman”. Did you sue their asses? Please tell me you sued them for all they are worth for such obvious and overt discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/59 "2014-11-28T16:26:31Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > … > Person who struts around the ring between rounds of a boxing match holding up the card with the round number on it. Save me, and SD, from posting the following query, because it won’t fit in the hed: What is the professional title of the person who struts around the ring between rounds of a boxing match holding up the card with the round number on it? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/60 "2014-11-28T17:33:48Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Did you sue their asses? Please tell me you sued them for all they are worth for such obvious and overt discrimination. What was the point of this post? People were discussing jobs that have a lack of men and I gave an example. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725.md?page=4)