# Gender discrimination: What endeavors are closed to men? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 27, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725 "2014-11-27T00:01:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/81 "2014-11-30T20:59:47Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > Several of you have posted that they or their kids had male teachers in elementary school, and no one considered it unusual. From the World Bank cite provided earlier, 13% of primary school teachers in the US are male (assuming this is a binary male-female classification). But when I look at the staff directory of our school system’s elementary schools there are 11 male sounding names out of 123 staff. Four are custodians, two are gym teachers, one each music and art, two are special ed assistants and one is a classroom teacher. > > I looked at a couple of neighboring towns and found zero and one male classroom teacher (out of 75 and 77). So at least in these tonier suburbs, it’s a lot lower than 13% for classroom teachers in elementary schools. My sister used to teach in a much “tougher” school district (40% of kids on free or reduced lunches vs 2-3% in our area) and there seemed to be a lot more male teachers there. I’ll bet you have to look at private school to get to the 13%. Aside from some religious schools that segregate by gender, or Catholic schools that have Jesuits teaching, even in the early grades, there is the fact that private schools don’t always require a degree in teaching. But on the other hand, they love having people with Ph.D. So a lot of people who get disillusioned with their career path (or were denied tenure) may decide to apply for work teaching at a private school; also, some private school teachers are people who retired from one career and then took up teaching as a second career. A lot of men who put in 20 years in the military and retired are still in their early 50s, and may spend the next ten years teaching at a military academy, and some professors might even decide to teach children after retiring from being college professors-- it’s not unheard of. Those places are probably where the 13% are. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/82 "2014-11-30T22:01:34Z")
Secretary: (I have an anecdote about this, but I posted it the last time this topic came up, can’t be arsed to dupe it) Flatmate: You’ll see a lot more ads that specify women only than men only. I’m living in china right now, and I’ve seen some job ads that say women only but never men only. However, it’s also the case that people can be told outright that they are too old, should or should not be married by now etc. Basically there’s still a lot of discrimination in every direction. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/83 "2014-11-30T22:10:18Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > Several of you have posted that they or their kids had male teachers in elementary school, and no one considered it unusual. From the World Bank cite provided earlier, 13% of primary school teachers in the US are male (assuming this is a binary male-female classification). But when I look at the staff directory of our school system’s elementary schools there are 11 male sounding names out of 123 staff. Four are custodians, two are gym teachers, one each music and art, two are special ed assistants and one is a classroom teacher. > > I looked at a couple of neighboring towns and found zero and one male classroom teacher (out of 75 and 77). So at least in these tonier suburbs, it’s a lot lower than 13% for classroom teachers in elementary schools. My sister used to teach in a much “tougher” school district (40% of kids on free or reduced lunches vs 2-3% in our area) and there seemed to be a lot more male teachers there. > > I know two male teachers personally, both teach in inner city schools. I wonder if that is the disconnect. The “nicer” the area, the less acceptance of male teachers? My daughter’s third grade male teacher was in her definitely affluent public school and I never heard anyone show any concern about his sex. The only unusual fact is that she is an a very rare public school French immersion program and all of her teachers have to be fully bi-lingual in French and English in addition to all of the other standard requirements. That greatly limits how many unofficial discriminatory criteria the school can use to limit those positions to females. I am glad they didn’t because he has been her favorite teacher by far and she told him so in a nice little note at the end of the year. She actually cried after her last day in his class. I am not being willfully obtuse but I still can’t understand why you are so strongly opposed to having a male teacher for your daughter. I assume it is some type of unspoken molestation fear but I don’t think that is justified. Even if it is a risk, you can’t avoid it completely just by making sure she always has female teachers. Almost all elementary schools have male employees in other positions with access to kids and, of course, it is completely possible for female teachers to engage in various forms of abuse themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/84 "2014-11-30T22:27:05Z")
Two differences I can think of from the 1970’s (really, late '70’s to early 80’s): first, the oddly common assumption by many who did not grow up then that the gender equality battle has been won. Hence the retrogressive slide. Second, fear. Only unusually paranoid parents had the degree of fear about their children then, that is now culturally enforced. This explains a lot of of the prejudice against males caring for or teaching children. Both ideas stalwartly resist the verifiable facts, but no one should be surprised at that. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/85 "2014-11-30T23:02:07Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Person who struts around the ring between rounds of a boxing match holding up the card with the round number on it. There’s a music quiz show in Australia called RockKwiz in which the compere is female and the person who parades about under-dressed holding up the scores is male. 'Course, it’s not really a good counter example since the whole point is that the show has its tongue firmly in its cheek. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/86 "2014-11-30T23:13:43Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Is it really a molestation fear? ☹ That’s so sad. To be honest, I’m more afraid of sexual attention from teachers in high school. Statistically, the chances that she’ll have a teacher who’s attracted to breasts and hips are far higher than having a pedophile for a teacher. **Most men** (and some women) **are attracted, sexually, to teenaged girls.** Very few are sexually attracted to children. (Bold added.) I find that statement disturbing and questionable. Can you provide some support for this? ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/87 "2014-11-30T23:22:27Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > (Bold added.) > > I find that statement disturbing and questionable. Can you provide some support for this? I find it strange (and somewhat disturbing) that you find it in the least questionable. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/88 "2014-11-30T23:28:18Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I am not being willfully obtuse but I still can’t understand why you are so strongly opposed to having a male teacher for your daughter. I assume it is some type of unspoken molestation fear but I don’t think that is justified. Even if it is a risk, you can’t avoid it completely just by making sure she always has female teachers. Almost all elementary schools have male employees in other positions with access to kids and, of course, it is completely possible for female teachers to engage in various forms of abuse themselves. I’m not opposed to it in the least, but my wife is. She in turn is taking her cues from the other parents who are long term residents of this town (we’ve only been here two years). I really don’t know why it is. If anyone has any specific concerns about molestation, they aren’t going to talk about it to “outsiders” like us. What my wife sees is people shelling out $25k to avoid this teacher, and concluding there must be something wrong, no smoke without fire. I was talking to a mother whose daughter is now in high school, and the same thing was happening right years ago when she was in third grade. Same teacher, but in those days the school would move kids around at parents’ request, so the male teacher would get a normal sized class of students whose parents didn’t specifically request a teacher. Nobody will even say he is a bad teacher, which would be the simplest expectation. A couple of moms have said that it seems weird that a man would choose this profession. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/89 "2014-11-30T23:34:59Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > I’m not opposed to it in the least, but my wife is. She in turn is taking her cues from the other parents who are long term residents of this town (we’ve only been here two years). I really don’t know why it is. If anyone has any specific concerns about molestation, they aren’t going to talk about it to “outsiders” like us. What my wife sees is people shelling out $25k to avoid this teacher, and concluding there must be something wrong, no smoke without fire. > > I was talking to a mother whose daughter is now in high school, and the same thing was happening right years ago when she was in third grade. Same teacher, but in those days the school would move kids around at parents’ request, so the male teacher would get a normal sized class of students whose parents didn’t specifically request a teacher. > > Nobody will even say he is a bad teacher, which would be the simplest expectation. A couple of moms have said that it seems weird that a man would choose this profession. This is a case where it’s hard to tell. It’s entirely plausible that something happened with him specifically, that went legally unreported, that everyone knows about but doesn’t talk about. It’s also entirely plausible that through some stupid game of telephone everyone condemned him based on vague hearsay and paranoia. It would be easier to tell if there was another elementary male teacher and whether everyone is avoiding **him** or not. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/90 "2014-11-30T23:53:55Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I’ll bet you have to look at private school to get to the 13%. Aside from some religious schools that segregate by gender, or Catholic schools that have Jesuits teaching, even in the early grades, there is the fact that private schools don’t always require a degree in teaching. But on the other hand, they love having people with Ph.D. So a lot of people who get disillusioned with their career path (or were denied tenure) may decide to apply for work teaching at a private school; also, some private school teachers are people who retired from one career and then took up teaching as a second career. A lot of men who put in 20 years in the military and retired are still in their early 50s, and may spend the next ten years teaching at a military academy, and some professors might even decide to teach children after retiring from being college professors-- it’s not unheard of. > > Those places are probably where the 13% are. I don’t think these would be primary school teachers. My mother was a private school administrator for 25 years. All either K-5 or K-8 schools. She says she’d be surprised if the number was over 5%. But again, she’s not including specialists, music, gym, art, technology, special ed, etc. The ratio seems higher there. When she hears teacher, she thinks classroom teacher. That’s where the number of male teachers is vanishingly small, I bet. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/91 "2014-12-01T00:20:00Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > (Bold added.) > > I find that statement disturbing and questionable. Can you provide some support for this? It fell so squarely under the umbrella of Common Knowledge that I didn’t think I needed to cite my source. I’m not entirely sure how to. I could start, I suppose, by pointing out that [pedophilia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia)is a recognized psychiatric disorder and [ephebophilia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia)is not. Or that a multitude of “countdown” pages exist for teenaged movie stars, where people who have no social or legal pressure not to are clearly comfortable expressing sexual interest in teenagers, while acknowledging the legal bar to actual contact until they come of age. Or I could point out how many jokes there are out there about giving men warnings that “she’s only 15” - not reactions of disgust that they are attracted to 15 year olds, but warnings that, despite the girl’s mature body, she’s “jailbait”. I could mention the successful pornography career of Tracy Lords, and I’m sure many other pornography actors, which began when she was of an age to be in high school. What kind of support are you looking for? ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/92 "2014-12-01T04:08:47Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I really think gender equality in a social sense has backslid since the 70s. Gender roles and fashions are more gender disparate, not less, especially when children are involved. Not just in gender. Race also - blaxploitation movies might have been “exploitative” but they also gave a lot meatier roles to actors of color who can’t find them now. As a librarian I can tell you that men who want to do children’s services (not teens - lots of guybrarians there) are looked at with a serious sideye. Not just by patrons but by staff. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/93 "2014-12-01T04:32:06Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Primary school teacher is a profession that is about 85% female in Ireland currently. There is no legal restriction on men becoming primary teachers, they just don’t, for I would guess a complex set of historical reasons. > From time to time, people fret that too few male primary teachers is leading to boys underachieving at school. I have no clue as to whether there’s any truth in this as I haven’t researched it but it is something one hears from time time. Yeah there is a lot of research on the subject, and it is considered a very real and verifiable problem. At the Pre-School level it’s even worse. Round here, a male kindergarten teacher is virtually unheard of ---
**Author:** ![EdwinAmi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5fc32e/32.png) [@EdwinAmi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdwinAmi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/94 "2014-12-01T07:19:17Z")
tampon tester? ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/95 "2014-12-01T10:32:38Z")
I do now that under the EU Equalities directive, there are some roles that are exempted from certain types of discrimination, bit it age, disability, religion and of course gender. These are jobs that specifically require either certain abilities or values. For sexual and domestic violence counselling, gender discrimination is legal, or for care workers of vulnerable groups. At one time I remember the issue of Muslim driving instructors - this turned on Muslim women could not be alone in the presence of an unknown male. These are not necessarily industry wide discrimination, there are male equivalents. I know that you do not see many female electricians, or female miners - but you also don’t see many male seamsters, yet there are plenty of male tailors. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/96 "2014-12-01T13:22:41Z")
> [@EdwinAmi](#): > > tampon tester? Tampon spokesperson on TV commercials. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/97 "2015-04-02T15:47:26Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > This is a case where it’s hard to tell. It’s entirely plausible that something happened with him specifically, that went legally unreported, that everyone knows about but doesn’t talk about. It’s also entirely plausible that through some stupid game of telephone everyone condemned him based on vague hearsay and paranoia. > > It would be easier to tell if there was another elementary male teacher and whether everyone is avoiding **him** or not. Reviving this to post an update. I don’t know if this link will work, but there has been an incident in a neighboring town that has somehow cemented my wife’s determination not to let my daughter go into the male 4th grade teacher’s class. Totally illogical. Totally predictable. > **[Bridgewater State student accused of child abuse - The Boston Globe](https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/04/01/bridgewater-state-student-charged-with-sexually-abusing-children-campus-day-care-center/7cBatpLxGPdQtw4IKWCXjM/story.html)** > > A Bridgewater State University student has been charged with sexually abusing children at the on-campus day care center where he worked, the school said Wednesday. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/98 "2015-04-02T16:07:36Z")
Not everyone knows this, but Jay Gordon M.D. (pediatrician to Jenny McCarthy’s kid and notorious antivaxer) is an International Board Certified Lactation Consultant. That’s a heavily female-dominated field for some reason, but Jay just _oozes_…sincerity. ---
**Author:** ![JoshuaSD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f1d935/32.png) [@JoshuaSD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoshuaSD)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/99 "2015-04-02T16:32:16Z")
> [@kstarnes](#): > > Sub-par or washed-out male athletes are not allowed to compete in women’s professional sports. If they were allowed, they would likely obliterate even the best female competition. It’s a protectionist racket (pun intended.) Put the worst male player against the best female player, see what happens. > [@Ethilrist](#): > > Tell Bobby Riggs that. Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-discrimination-what-endeavors-are-closed-to-men/705725/100 "2015-04-02T19:16:56Z")
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