# Gender Disorder and Hormone Blocking Therapy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947 "2011-10-07T22:25:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bloodless\_Turnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bloodless\_Turnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloodless_Turnip)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/21 "2011-10-08T16:02:57Z")
> [@ModernPrimate](#): > > Clear child abuse. Care to state why you feel this way? ---
**Author:** ![ModernPrimate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@ModernPrimate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ModernPrimate)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/22 "2011-10-08T16:05:20Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > So yes, they’re drugs, mis-used they can have side effects. Even used properly there can be side effects. However, for puberty blocking there’s far less likely to be a problem than in some of the other applications. And what does “less likely to be a problem” mean? He may never grow private parts as big, his voice may never be as deep, he may never grow facial hair like he would have. I personally wish I had more testosterone and more ability to grow facial hair. In the current age, it’s said that toxins in artificial substances already tend to act like female hormones, thus affecting the whole development of males and giving them less testosterone than their ancestors, particularly in some individuals. With these drugs and medications, they usually only ever look at what’s a “problem”, ie. what they can clearly see on the surface as a massive anomaly. If he ends up with 5-30% less testosterone in his adult life, it’ll all be under the carpet. Nobody will know if it were the hormones/drugs that caused that or something else. This goes for all drugs you take: nobody knows what very subtle but significant and irreversible changes they can make… things that can be explained away as “maybe it would be like that anyway” afterwards. I think this “less likely to be a problem” is more like less likely to be a “problem” for the manufacturers and misguided parents/doctors, they’ll never know the full extent of what they did to him. ---
**Author:** ![Bloodless\_Turnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bloodless\_Turnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloodless_Turnip)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/23 "2011-10-08T16:07:21Z")
I’ts my observation that those who believe gender disorder in children to be a “phase” will find every opposition to the use of hormone blocking possible. The warnings on every prescription drug I’ve ever taken would make any sane person think twice. Yet, I decided the minuscule possibility of an adverse reaction was worth the benefit of the drug. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/24 "2011-10-08T17:12:15Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Given that something like 25% of transgender children/teens have attempted suicide at least once by the age of 20, and other scary statistics like that, the risks of puberty blocking don’t strike me as that horrific. This bears repeating. We are not talking about hormone blocking therapy vs. a perfectly normal ideal life. We are comparing it to a disease that has a staggeringly high death rate, an enormous toll on the quality of life, and very few effective treatments. I agree that hormone blocking therapy is not ideal. It’s a messy, iffy, therapy with a lot of potential to go wrong. But it’s all we’ve got, and it’s better than a bunch of dead kids. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/25 "2011-10-08T17:13:55Z")
> [@ModernPrimate](#): > > And what does “less likely to be a problem” mean? He may never grow private parts as big, his voice may never be as deep, he may never grow facial hair like he would have. Actually, so far as I know, that is NOT a possibility. It doesn’t reset the body’s natural hormone production, it just delays the start of it. Once the therapy is withdrawn the body goes through normal puberty and, from all indications, produces completely normal levels of hormones and undergoes the development that would have occurred earlier without intervention. It’s not just the amount of sex hormones, it’s also how strongly your cells react to them, and that is set by _genetics_ and can not be altered by medication. > [@](#): > > I personally wish I had more testosterone and more ability to grow facial hair. Well, sir, that is something to discuss with a doctor. Supplemental testosterone is an entirely legitimate hormone treatment (unless you’re using it to cheat at sports). However, as I said, things like “quantity of facial hair” are partly genetic. There are some otherwise completely normal males that will _never_ grow a lot of facial hair due to genetics. Some ethnic groups have more than others. My spouse is an excellent example - he was diagnosed as low T at one point, took supplements to put him very comfortable into the normal middle range, and he still can’t grow a beard to save his life. Why? Too much Native American ancestry near as anyone can tell. Doesn’t matter how much hormone you pump into him, his chin follicles just won’t increase hair production. Likewise, in women the treatment only delays puberty, it doesn’t really alter it. The resulting woman is in no way masculine for the delay. The only lasting effect likely to occur for women is a small increase in height, as delaying puberty also delays closure of the growth plates on the bones. This isn’t a drastic increase in height, and yes, would also apply to the boys but not so much because male puberty usually occurs later than female anyway so the duration of treatment is not so long. It might be as much as an inch or two, at most, and won’t result in freakishly tall people. > [@](#): > > This goes for all drugs you take: nobody knows what very subtle but significant and irreversible changes they can make… things that can be explained away as “maybe it would be like that anyway” afterwards. > > I think this “less likely to be a problem” is more like less likely to be a “problem” for the manufacturers and misguided parents/doctors, they’ll never know the full extent of what they did to him. Your points are valid, however, even if there were a potential side effect such as less facial hair in a grown man it pales in comparison to the side effects of, say, suicide. Transsexuals are prone to self-harm. I’d rather have a healthy adult with a little less beard hair, or a woman a little taller than she would have been otherwise, but socially functional and not trying to hurt him or herself, than have them undergo a normal puberty but wind up with them self-mutilating or killing themselves by 20 or 25. In a _normal_ child or teen yes, such a treatment would be entirely inappropriate but we’re not talking about a normal kid, we’re talking about someone who isn’t normal and is at significant risk of grievous harm. ---
**Author:** ![Bloodless\_Turnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bloodless\_Turnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloodless_Turnip)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/26 "2011-10-08T17:24:52Z")
Some of the comments in the original article are jaw dropping, to say the least. This woman doesn’t see any difference between her normal son, and the boy being discussed: > [@](#): > > My son who is now all boy used to like to wear my shoes & clothes when he was a preschooler. He also like to play with baby dolls & use his pretend kitchen. I guess if I were these parents I would have ran out to buy him girl clothing & tell everyone he thought he was a girl. Sorry. I agree with supporting a teen or pre-teen, but these women are cruel. This one is just…well, I don’t have the words: > [@](#): > > I only think sex change is right if the child is born with both genitals, both male and female.. then you have to do something. But I think as the other posters said, this young man should have had a DAD to show him how to be a real man. This one disregards the two other sons these ladies raised, who presumably don’t have gender disorders: > [@](#): > > I truly believe that some people are born in the wrong body. However, this poor lad has had no parental male figure to look up to in his life, only women, who I assume are both his ‘mother’? I do not believe that same sex couples ought to adopt children, as they are unable to provide the essential identity balance necessary within a child’s life. Plenty of children are brought up within single parent families, for whatever reason, but to actively choose this for a child, in my opinion, is wrong. We need a hormone therapy for ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/27 "2011-10-08T17:25:12Z")
> [@ModernPrimate](#): > > Clear child abuse. That’s an interesting statement coming from someone who is, [in a current thread in this very forum](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=626998&), arguing that maybe men who engage in sexually explicit online chats with [people they believe to be] young teens and then arrange to meet these young teens alone might actually be motivated by “[a parental desire to care for someone](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14335166&postcount=94)”. Yet for some reason you’re not willing to extend the same benefit of the doubt to Ms. Moreno and Ms. Lobel, who are actually the legal parents of Tammy Lobel and who might understandably have been concerned about their child’s behavior. According to the article, Tammy was claiming to be a girl by age three and by age seven was “threatening genital mutilation on himself”. > [@ModernPrimate](#): > > With these drugs and medications, they usually only ever look at what’s a “problem”, ie. what they can clearly see on the surface as a massive anomaly. If he ends up with 5-30% less testosterone in his adult life, it’ll all be under the carpet. Nobody will know if it were the hormones/drugs that caused that or something else. If this supposed (uncited) possibility that a child might grow up to have a slightly lower level of testosterone as an adult than he would otherwise have had is clear child abuse, then practically anything could be considered child abuse. Parents do countless things every day that carry some small risk of harming their children, things with potentially far more severe consequences than maybe having a minor impact on the child’s future ability to grow a full beard. In 2009 [over a thousand children 15 and under were killed while riding in vehicles](http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/People/PeopleOccupants.aspx), but driving one’s child someplace in a car isn’t normally considered child abuse. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/28 "2011-10-08T17:32:59Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > There is no evidence that same-gender parents are more apt to have gender-variant children than opposite-gender parents. The only thing that may happen is that such parents might be more accepting of such children (and only ‘might’, as sadly, many cissexual queer people are quite transphobic). Presumably true (or at least I’ve never heard anything different.) This isn’t about what’s normal, but about one specific case. Broomstick, I understand the argument, but I find a huge difference in a limited prosthetic and full-on surgical resculpting, just as consider doctors who (some have, yes) amputate people for their patient’s psychological issues quacks. Gender-reassignment is much more akin to the latter than the former. Psychotherapy can treat the problem, or at least diminish it; medicine cannot. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/29 "2011-10-08T17:54:43Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Yet for some reason you’re not willing to extend the same benefit of the doubt to Ms. Moreno and Ms. Lobel, who are actually the legal parents of Tammy Lobel and who might understandably have been concerned about their child’s behavior. According to the article, Tammy was claiming to be a girl by age three and by age seven was “threatening genital mutilation on himself”. Maybe if they hadn’t let the problem fester for four years, the kid wouldn’t have been threatening to mutilate himself. If a three year old boy thinks they’re a girl, it shouldn’t be that hard to convince them otherwise. Seriously, what grounds would a _three year old_ have to come to that conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/30 "2011-10-08T18:05:31Z")
How would you go about convincing them otherwise, then? ---
**Author:** ![Bloodless\_Turnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bloodless\_Turnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloodless_Turnip)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/31 "2011-10-08T18:13:52Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Maybe if they hadn’t let the problem fester for four years, the kid wouldn’t have been threatening to mutilate himself. If a three year old boy thinks they’re a girl, it shouldn’t be that hard to convince them otherwise. Seriously, what grounds would a _three year old_ have to come to that conclusion? Maybe one with a gender disorder? Just guessing. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/32 "2011-10-08T18:15:59Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Maybe if they hadn’t let the problem fester for four years, the kid wouldn’t have been threatening to mutilate himself. If a three year old boy thinks they’re a girl, it shouldn’t be that hard to convince them otherwise. The article doesn’t say what Ms. Moreno and Ms. Lobel were doing for those four years. You have concluded that they “let the problem fester”, but the article linked in the OP provides us with no information about what they did during that time period. A quick Google pulls up this [CNN story](http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/27/health/transgender-kids/) about the same family, which says that the parents did respond to Thomas/Tammy’s claim of being a girl by signing back “No, no. Thomas is a boy.” However, “the toddler shook his head. ‘I am a girl,’ he signed back emphatically.” The CNN story does not say much about what happened over the next few years, but does say that according to the parents “he kept insisting he was a girl”. > [@](#): > > Seriously, what grounds would a _three year old_ have to come to that conclusion? So you’re suggesting what, that Ms. Moreno and Ms. Lobel brainwashed their son into believing he was a girl? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/33 "2011-10-08T18:39:50Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I don’t think it’s ethical even if they are. They’re either suffering from body dysmorphia or they’re placing too much emphasis on conforming to traditional gender roles. Either way, these permanent physical changes are going to be far more disruptive than actually fixing the problem. How do you fix the problem? Look, of course the straightforward common-sense treatment is therapy to convince transgendered people to accept their biological gender. Except the trouble is that this straightforward therapy doesn’t seem to work very well, or at all. Of course you can show the person that they have a penis and therefore are a male, or that they have a vagina and are therefore a female, and to stop thinking of themselves as their preferred gender. But the problem is, these people aren’t delusional. They aren’t unaware that they have the primary and secondary sexual characteristics of their biological gender. They know they have them, it’s that they don’t want to have them. Now personally, it seems to me that surgery or hormones to change your appearance doesn’t make much sense. I mean, if I were suddenly turned into a woman, I can’t imagine freaking the fuck out. I’d still wear the clothes I prefer and engage in the activites I prefer and have romantic attractions to the people I prefer. There’s nothing inherently “female” about a dress or “male” about pants. But if you like wearing dresses, or pants, go right ahead. So, from my perspective, the thing to do is to let people live however they like, and accept their physical bodies however they are. That would work fine for me. And we all know butch women who don’t want to be men and femme guys who don’t want to be women. However, it doesn’t seem to work well for some people. If “hey, have you ever considered accepting yourself as you are?” therapy doesn’t work, which it won’t, then what are we left with? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/34 "2011-10-08T19:09:11Z")
> [@Bloodless\_Turnip](#): > > Maybe one with a gender disorder? Just guessing. But _why_? What female traits would a three year old boy recognise that would make him think that he is a girl? ---
**Author:** ![Bloodless\_Turnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bloodless\_Turnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloodless_Turnip)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/35 "2011-10-08T19:20:23Z")
The fact that he was uncomfortable with his penis? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/36 "2011-10-08T19:38:23Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Psychotherapy can treat the problem, or at least diminish it; medicine cannot. This would be nice if it were true. But it isn’t. By all accounts, psychotherapy has astonishingly poor results when it comes to improving the longevity and quality of life with people who have gender disorders. People who treat gender disorder this way have a higher rate of suffering and death. It can be a useful tool, but as a stand-alone treatment, for most people, it just doesn’t work. By all accounts, corrective surgery can improve the quality of life and longevity of people with gender disorders. It’s not a perfect cure- there really isn’t one, but it can remove two very big stressors. It can help the negative feelings associated with inhabiting a physical body that does not match your mental image, and it can help with being constantly perceived as the wrong gender and treated as such. For someone suffering a disease that makes you so miserable that it has one of the highest suicide rates of any disorder, this is a big deal. There is substantial evidence that gender disorders originate in the structure of the brain. Basically, just like there is gnarly stuff that sometimes happens with gender and chromosomes, there is gnarly stuff that sometimes happens with physical brain structure and hormones. The raw truth is that we don’t really understand it, we don’t really have good ways to deal with it, but it is a big deal, it is hurting people right now, and we do have some crude and imperfect ways to work with it that seem to do some good. I don’t care if it is “right” or “wrong” or “natural” or “giving in to delusions.” I want people to live. I want them to thrive. I want them to be happy. And scientific evidence outweighs common sense or gut feelings on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/37 "2011-10-08T19:38:42Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Broomstick, I understand the argument, but I find a huge difference in a limited prosthetic and full-on surgical resculpting, just as consider doctors who (some have, yes) amputate people for their patient’s psychological issues quacks. Gender-reassignment is much more akin to the latter than the former. Psychotherapy can treat the problem, or at least diminish it; medicine cannot. Except it seems psychotherapy _can’t_ diminish the problem, at least not in some cases. Not one sexual transition surgery occurs in the US without the patient having been in psychotherapy for some time, often a minimum number of years prior to getting the surgery. If psychotherapy is tried and doesn’t work, what then? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/38 "2011-10-08T19:48:35Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > But _why_? What female traits would a three year old boy recognise that would make him think that he is a girl? By age two or three most children differentiate between men/boys and women/girls, have a personal gender identity, and express this identity by consistently referring to themselves as either boys or girls. While it is uncommon for a child, or an adult for that matter, to have a gender identity that does not match up with their physical sex, it is developmentally normal for a child of three to believe either “I am a boy” or “I am a girl”. I don’t know _why_ young children have gender identities, but they do, and I don’t see any reason why a transgender child shouldn’t have a gender identity by age three just like other children. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/39 "2011-10-08T20:40:44Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > By age two or three most children differentiate between men/boys and women/girls, have a personal gender identity, and express this identity by consistently referring to themselves as either boys or girls. While it is uncommon for a child, or an adult for that matter, to have a gender identity that does not match up with their physical sex, it is developmentally normal for a child of three to believe either “I am a boy” or “I am a girl”. I don’t know _why_ young children have gender identities, but they do, and I don’t see any reason why a transgender child shouldn’t have a gender identity by age three just like other children. But these other children have their “traditional” gender identities procured by _outside_ forces (like what the rest of the world is telling them what they are). So it is understandable _why_ a typical child would identify themselves with their born-with gender. What influences a two or three year old child to say he/she is _different_ than what the world is telling them they are? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947/40 "2011-10-08T21:12:28Z")
This is ridiculous. When I was 10, I wanted to be a boy, too. I dressed like a boy sometimes and tried to pass as one in public. I’m twenty-six now and most definitely a happy female. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-disorder-and-hormone-blocking-therapy/598947.md?page=3)