# Gender divide in elementary education & child care **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 3, 2018, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366 "2018-10-03T13:18:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/41 "2018-10-04T21:25:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Much as some people want to deny reality, I think there is strong evidence of sexism at work. Yes, you have a point about there being sexism at work: we’ve already discussed that people prefer to employ women for childcare and lower schooling. See **Velocity** ’s post above. Don’t forget the convenience issue: when it comes to teachers in lower schools because the teacher is only at work when the children are at school. When school finishes, the teacher takes the children home and finishes their work (marking etc) when the children are abed. This is massively convenient for the teacher and means that the pay can be lower. Speaking of pay, I don’t know about the USA but here in the UK childcare is often paid out of net income and the Tories have just stopped the childcare voucher scheme. Details [here](https://www.gov.uk/help-with-childcare-costs/childcare-vouchers). So people in work cannot afford to pay much and there seems to be a benefits trap too. So wages for childcare are driven by the low incomes of those paying for it. Again, this is the UK, not the US. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/42 "2018-10-04T21:54:57Z")
Here’s a Forbes article about teacher pay. I agree with the poster who said that the higher pay may be explained by coaching. It’s not that significant. > **[Low Teacher Pay And High Teacher Pay Are Both Myths](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2014/08/07/low-teacher-pay-and-high-teacher-pay-are-both-myths/#183009931af4)** > > Lots of people seem to think teachers are paid too little; another group thinks teachers are paid too much. The data and the labor market conditions for teachers suggest both sides are wrong. Where I live, teachers are paid according to experience and education level, not by what grade they teach. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/43 "2018-10-04T22:03:54Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Don’t forget the convenience issue: when it comes to teachers in lower schools because the teacher is only at work when the children are at school. When school finishes, the teacher takes the children home and finishes their work (marking etc) when the children are abed. This is massively convenient for the teacher and means that the pay can be lower. 😕 In the first place, **all** teachers are only “at work” when the children are at school, whether it’s grade school or high school. The average school day in the US, for grade school and secondary school alike, is [nearly 7 hours long](https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/sass/tables/sass0708_035_s1s.asp), which is not much shorter than a full 8-hour day. And then if teachers have grading and lesson prep to do at home on top of that, it really doesn’t end up being that “massively convenient”. Nah, the chief reason that elementary school teachers in particular are so low-paid is, as other posters have pointed out, the residual “women’s work” effect. Any job traditionally done by women has traditionally been a low-paying job, irrespective of how difficult, responsible or time-consuming it is. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/44 "2018-10-05T00:33:44Z")
I teach English in Taiwan, with more than half of my hours in kindergarten and private after schools programs for lower elementary school kids. There are many foreign men teaching English in kindergarten and lower elementary school levels. Could be more than half. Interestly, teaching English to kindergartners actually pays _more_ than teaching adult conversation because it’s far more difficult. There are a number of Taiwanese male English teachers as well. However, for just regular teachers there are very few male kindergarten teachers. Again, probably for the same reasons. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/45 "2018-10-05T00:59:16Z")
I only remember having one male teacher during my grade school years. That was 6th grade. I had a few male teachers in junior high and high school. But I had more female teachers. It shifted to more men in college. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/46 "2018-10-05T01:15:10Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > There is a widespread belief in the US that any male who works with children is most likely a pedophile. > > I know a man who lost/quit his job at a day care center. He was by all accounts an excellent employee. But his presence made parents uncomfortable. They didn’t even have a specific complaint. It was just that fact that he was a man. The day care people knew they couldn’t legally fire him, but he knew he was making customers nervous and he quit on his own. Yes; my brother works with kids and it’s a serious worry. They have this whole elaborate set of rules set up to make sure that a woman is always watching him; not because _they_ think he’s a pedophile but because they know how eager people are to make the accusation against any man. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/47 "2018-10-05T06:27:15Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > 😕 In the first place, **all** teachers are only “at work” when the children are at school, whether it’s grade school or high school. The average school day in the US, for grade school and secondary school alike, is [nearly 7 hours long](https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/sass/tables/sass0708_035_s1s.asp), which is not much shorter than a full 8-hour day. I’m in the UK and talking about the UK, remember. School ends very early - 15:00 or 15:30 - here. > [@](#): > > And then if teachers have grading and lesson prep to do at home on top of that, Which - over here - they do. I’ve been subjected to long sermons. 🙂 There are all sorts of official reports to be completed, and I’m sure it’s got worse in the last 20 years. > [@](#): > > it really doesn’t end up being that “massively convenient”. Actually, yes it does. Again, I’m talking about the UK, not the US ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/48 "2018-10-05T07:36:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I have a hard time believing women are ending up in lower paying jobs by their own choice. It seems pretty obvious to me that women would prefer to take higher paying jobs if they had the opportunities. Much as some people want to deny reality, I think there is strong evidence of sexism at work. I don’t think that necessarily follows. As far as I know, doctors are very well paid and that high level of renumeration doesn’t seem to prevent the proportion of women medical students and new doctors being [higher then men](https://www.gponline.com/rise-women-general-practice/article/1458988). Is it not possible that, given a free choice and with equality of opportunity, the gender balance will find its own natural level. That in some cases it will be skewed one way or another is to be expected. i.e. more female doctors and more female early-years teachers, more male engineers and pilots. Certainly if I saw a perfect 50/50 split of genders across all careers I’d suspect that it was artificially managed. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/49 "2018-10-05T12:11:46Z")
[This is the pay scale for our district](https://district.bluevalleyk12.org/employment/FormsAndDocsEmployment/Schedule-Certified.pdf). Their is no distinction between high school pay and elementary pay. The only reason HS teachers might be paid more is they have a greater chance to do specials like coach a team or run a club. And by “coach” that can be a sport or an academic pursuit like debate or sponsoring the freshman class. [HERE](https://district.bluevalleyk12.org/employment/FormsAndDocsEmployment/Schedule-Supplemental.pdf)is a link to the supplementary salary schedule. The way it works is go to the 2nd page. Each category is listed and then you can see the pay. for example a head football coach makes an extra $5021-$7021 per year. A jr. class sponsor makes an extra m$961 per year. Also I feel, more elementary teachers drop out for a time when they have children. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/50 "2018-10-05T12:16:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nah, the chief reason that elementary school teachers in particular are so low-paid is, as other posters have pointed out, the residual “women’s work” effect. Any job traditionally done by women has traditionally been a low-paying job, irrespective of how difficult, responsible or time-consuming it is. In the UK the pay sales for teachers are the same, a similarly qualified elementary school teacher doesn’t get paid less than the comparable secondary school teacher in the same geographic region. So your point doesn’t hold for England at least and yet the same gender bias is seen. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/51 "2018-10-05T12:25:50Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > Several times in this thread it has been mentioned that the low pay for elementary school teachers may drive away men. It’s also possible that the direction of causation goes the opposite way. Elementary school teacher pay is low because it is a job mostly performed by women. Right. Just saying, “Pay is the reason,” is like saying, “Women prefer to be paid less, so they’re attracted to primary school positions.” It’s begging the question. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/52 "2018-10-05T12:36:07Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Right. > > Just saying, “Pay is the reason,” is like saying, “Women prefer to be paid less, so they’re attracted to primary school positions.” It’s begging the question. But the thing is they are NOT PAID LESS. As I showed in my previous post salary schedules are the SAME across the board for all teachers in a district. The only difference is HS teachers have a better chance of supplemental pay. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/53 "2018-10-05T13:23:14Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > it was not that long ago that women had 3 main career choices: > > nursing > teaching > clerical/secretary/admin assistant > > seeing men in any of those fields was rare In many small towns across the USA these are still often the only jobs for either men or women. Teach at the local school, nurse at the local nursing home, or try and do some sort of office work. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/54 "2018-10-05T19:54:40Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Right. > > Just saying, “Pay is the reason,” is like saying, “Women prefer to be paid less, so they’re attracted to primary school positions.” It’s begging the question. Actually yes, women WILL work for less pay IF depending upon the job and how it works out with their family. For example I am paid more than the women I work with but thats because I work nights and weekends and I get paid extra for that. Our base pay is the same but I make more in the long run. If a female coworker wants my pay they would just have to work the same hours. I knew a woman who quit a good paying job because it required long hours and it was to the point where her kids were calling the daycare worker “Mom” and one time when again, she had to work late and picked her kids up at nearly 7 pm, her kids didnt want to come home with her. ---
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/55 "2018-10-05T20:30:16Z")
Can’t add anything more pertinent or informative about the lack of men in an educational setting but I do have some insight to the daycare side of things. When I first got out of high school, a little over twenty years ago, I worked exclusively in daycare settings. I did this for years actually and almost made it my career. I was also in California at the time with tends to be a bit more progressive about things. But only once did I have a male co-worker who wasn’t either a bus driver or a maintenance man. The impression I got from the ‘business’ side of things, was that the majority of parents do not feel comfortable leaving their young children in the care of a man. For whatever reasons of their own, they much preferred women. Also, another thing that was told to me by one of the site directors, was that men were a bigger liability. There was (and still is to a degree) so much fear about what strange men might do to your child, that the chances of a child saying something completely innocent and having the parent take it in a wildly wrong way (and possibly involving authorities), were much higher if there was a man involved. The one man I do remember working with was a great guy who really loved kids. He was wonderful with them and you could tell he loved his job. But even he was never left alone with the children. He was used mostly as a ‘floater’, covering spots for the ladies who were going on lunch, break, whatever. And he was absolutely NOT allowed to change diapers or help a child use the restroom. That was something he had to go get a female coworker for. Again, this was 20 years ago so I’m hoping things have changed, if even a little, for the better. But given the sort of treatment and unwarranted suspicions that poor guy endured, it doesn’t surprise me that more men don’t work in the field. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/56 "2018-10-05T20:38:13Z")
> [@AngelSoft](#): > > Can’t add anything more pertinent or informative about the lack of men in an educational setting but I do have some insight to the daycare side of things. When I first got out of high school, a little over twenty years ago, I worked exclusively in daycare settings. I did this for years actually and almost made it my career. I was also in California at the time with tends to be a bit more progressive about things. But only once did I have a male co-worker who wasn’t either a bus driver or a maintenance man. > > The impression I got from the ‘business’ side of things, was that the majority of parents do not feel comfortable leaving their young children in the care of a man. For whatever reasons of their own, they much preferred women. Also, another thing that was told to me by one of the site directors, was that men were a bigger liability. There was (and still is to a degree) so much fear about what strange men might do to your child, that the chances of a child saying something completely innocent and having the parent take it in a wildly wrong way (and possibly involving authorities), were much higher if there was a man involved. > > The one man I do remember working with was a great guy who really loved kids. He was wonderful with them and you could tell he loved his job. But even he was never left alone with the children. He was used mostly as a ‘floater’, covering spots for the ladies who were going on lunch, break, whatever. And he was absolutely NOT allowed to change diapers or help a child use the restroom. That was something he had to go get a female coworker for. > > Again, this was 20 years ago so I’m hoping things have changed, if even a little, for the better. But given the sort of treatment and unwarranted suspicions that poor guy endured, it doesn’t surprise me that more men don’t work in the field. My spouse signed up to help out with childcare at his church (we have no kids) and worked with the 3-to-5-year-olds. They had _tons_ of rules, especially for the male volunteers–they weren’t allowed to be alone with individual kids, weren’t allowed to change diapers or take a kid to the bathroom, and basically seemed to be treated like ticking time bombs. The spouse was fine with all these rules and was always very careful to follow them religiously (no pun intended). It’s pretty sad the way things are. I feel bad for men who genuinely enjoy being around kids and would like to do so without being under a constant cloud of suspicion, but I also see that the kids’ safety has to take priority. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/57 "2018-10-05T20:49:00Z")
There is certainly a historical component to it. My mother, born 1913, presumably started elementary school in 1919 at which time all elementary teachers were, by law, unmarried women. You got married, you were fired. When I was 9 we moved back to her old neighborhood and went to her old school for grades 5 through 8. Several of the teachers (in a small school with only one class per grade, although there were two grades in each year, an A and a B grade) were there who had taught my mother and were, by that time, bitter old maids (who hated little boys). Male teachers and married teachers were now permitted but only one teacher was male. He taught science, math, and woodshop (the latter while the girls had sewing and cooking). This was in the late 40s. When I went to my all-boys HS, nearly all the teachers were male (two exceptions as I recall, although one was a term-long substitute). Somewhat surprisingly, my kids elementary school had no male teachers and I have not heard my grandchildren ever mention a male elementary teacher. There might be a prejudice because of the possibility of pedophilia, I don’t know. But I’ll bet the low pay has a lot to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/58 "2018-10-06T00:19:32Z")
I asked this question on another website that has a sub-forum for teachers, from nursery school through grad school. All of the public-school respondents said that in their districts, pay scales are the same regardless of what grade they teach, and agreed with me that a grade-school teacher’s salary may be lower because they are more likely to be women, who are more likely to take some time off when they have children or other personal reasons. One of them said that the bonus for a teacher with a Ph.D. vs. a master’s is just $1,000 a year. S/he added that the people s/he knew of who had a terminal degree often got it in an unrelated field, or had tried teaching at the college level and didn’t like it, so they stepped back to teaching younger people and that suited them better. I also know that education is a very common mid-life career choice, as is cosmetology, the clergy, and nursing - all very challenging jobs that don’t usually pay particularly well. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/59 "2018-10-06T02:18:59Z")
> [@Infovore](#): > > My spouse signed up to help out with childcare at his church (we have no kids) and worked with the 3-to-5-year-olds. They had _tons_ of rules, especially for the male volunteers–they weren’t allowed to be alone with individual kids, weren’t allowed to change diapers or take a kid to the bathroom, and basically seemed to be treated like ticking time bombs. The spouse was fine with all these rules and was always very careful to follow them religiously (no pun intended). It’s pretty sad the way things are. I feel bad for men who genuinely enjoy being around kids and would like to do so without being under a constant cloud of suspicion, but I also see that the kids’ safety has to take priority. It’s great that he was able to swallow his pride. My reaction probably would have been, “Guess I’m not welcome here after all, ya’ll can get bent.” Now that you mentioned this, I might have to ask my friend if that had anything to do with him quitting his daycare job. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366/60 "2018-10-07T08:12:07Z")
[This article](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/06/sex-abuse-claims-against-teachers-made-pupils-teaching-union/) in the Telegraph may be paywalled, but one of the teachers’ unions is saying that schools are too quick to suspend teachers. This may benefit male teachers who have the difficulties mentioned upthread. > [@](#): > > Teachers accused of sexual abuse should not be automatically suspended because most children “make it up”, the head of Britain’s biggest teaching union has warned. > > Kevin Courtney, joint secretary of the National Education Union (NEU) claimed “street smart” pupils who misbehaved in class often made spurious complaints to “get an effect”. > > He said the union… “constantly battled” with schools over teachers being suspended before any preliminary “common sense” checks had been carried out into the allegations… “I represent teachers where allegations are made against them by children - illegitimate touching, etc and sometimes those allegations are correct. But actually most of the time it turns out that after any investigation they are not correct. > > “Do you think you can say that you can believe every child? You should take the accusation seriously. You should investigate and we should tell children that it is safe to make an accusation so then the ones that are true, get made. But you can’t say that you will believe every accusation that a child makes because we have many cases where children who are misbehaving are street smart enough to know. and > [@](#): > > The former teacher … also called for teachers who are falsely accused to have the allegation completely removed from their criminal records. I’m surprised this isn’t already done; innocence is innocence. Then again, presumption of innocence and false accusations are two of my hobby-horses. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-divide-in-elementary-education-child-care/822366.md?page=4)