# Gender identity and encouraging 'traditional' roles **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486 "2011-04-15T14:36:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/41 "2011-04-16T01:12:58Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I read once (and it came from a baby book, so it might be utter bullshit) that in some historic cultures (Scots, maybe? Or Irish?) pink was the traditional “boy’s” color because if you wanted your baby boy to grow up to be a badass warrior or hunter, you’d dip a rag in blood, wring it out so it wouldn’t drip, and hang it over his cradle. The rag, of course, would be pink. > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Isn’t dried blood more reddish brown? > [@WhyNot](#): > > Pedant. 😉 > I dunno, maybe they changed the rag every day? It [doesn’t sound like](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redcap) _babies_ they are talking about… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/42 "2011-04-16T01:14:42Z")
> [@biddee](#): > > Very controversial article here from a psychiatrist. > […] > What do you guys think? I think the real issue here is that the psychiatrist has some deep-seated issues of his own. He was teased a lot in high school, you see. His last name is Ablow. A lot of news stories are about nothing, but this really takes the cake. I don’t have the patience to read Ablow’s rant, but it’s a mistake to think the picture says much of anything about gender roles in that home. I suspect a lot of small boys ask their mothers to paint their fingernails or toes at least once - before they get old enough to know it’s wrong to be interested in anything women do because if you are a man and you’re interested in how women spend their time, you’re gay. 😉 People are going to be who they are, and I think it’s better for the parents to encourage them to do what makes them happy instead of steering them toward one kind of role or another - whether that means fitting into a role or defying it on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/43 "2011-04-16T01:20:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It [doesn’t sound like](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redcap) _babies_ they are talking about… I will never feel the same way about [David the Gnome](http://cdn.thegloss.com/files/2010/11/worldofdavidgnome4.jpg) again. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/44 "2011-04-16T01:31:15Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > E.g. certain American politicians have recently borrowed a trillion dollars from the culturally traditional Chinese and Japanese just for this purpose. Sooooo, forced abortion and idiosyncratic communism for all! ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/45 "2011-04-16T01:52:00Z")
> [@biddee](#): > > Very controversial article here from a psychiatrist. > … > What do you guys think? It’s from Fox ‘News’. It’s written by a famed neo-conservative. I think it isn’t worth thinking about it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/46 "2011-04-16T02:29:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It [doesn’t sound like](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redcap) _babies_ they are talking about… > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I will never feel the same way about [David the Gnome](http://cdn.thegloss.com/files/2010/11/worldofdavidgnome4.jpg) again. Sounds like it’s time for a “Darker and Edgier” remake of _The World of David the Gnome_! How about _David the Gnome: Thirst for Blood_?! “We retooled the series to appeal to today’s more mature, modern audience.” ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/47 "2011-04-16T02:46:07Z")
I still want to know why it was standard practice before WWI to put all kids in dresses until they were 6 or 7. Why dresses? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/48 "2011-04-16T02:47:23Z")
I don’t know about six or seven but for much younger children it might be easier to change diapers if they were in dresses. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/49 "2011-04-16T02:49:49Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I still want to know why it was standard practice before WWI to put all kids in dresses until they were 6 or 7. Why dresses? A guess: Simple, loose clothing that more-or-less continued to fit them as they grew in an era when clothing was more expensive? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/50 "2011-04-16T02:54:54Z")
And remember that vintage diapers were much bulkier than the diapers of today. A dress shape uses less material than a pair of big-ass baby pants, and looks better to boot. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/51 "2011-04-16T04:05:55Z")
[There’s this guy I heard of once, named Cecil, and his lowly assistant Una, who looked into the whole pink and blue question very recently.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2831/was-pink-originally-the-color-for-boys-and-blue-for-girls) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/52 "2011-04-16T06:16:15Z")
Bah. Gender roles, shmender shmoles. As long as people are happy and shit gets done, why should we care who is doing it? I have to give my parents an “A” in how gender-neutral they were with my early (pre-teen years) upbringing. If I asked for a GI Joe for Christmas, I’d get the GI Joe (or the generic version, more likely :)). I remember my favorite toy being a toy truck that would move on its own with a push of a switch. I took that thing a part piece by piece, just to see how much it could deteriorate without being functional any more, even going as far as cutting wires. No one told me to stop my bizarre experiment. I was given plenty of dolls and stuffed animals too. But if my parents were horrified by the mutilation make-overs I gave them, they hid it pretty well. It wasn’t until I reached the middle school years where I started getting the “young ladies don’t dress like that” kind of steering. I conformed well enough eventually, but consider myself gender-neutral now. I mean, I don’t deny my womanhood–I have my pretty skirts and dresses that I like to wear every now and then, and even earrings!–but I don’t feel strongly attached to my gender identity. Fortunately, people haven’t given me any problems for my non-conformity (to my face), although I do occassionally get gentle, said-with-love suggestions to put on a little blush or wear more feminine shoes. Sometimes I follow the advice. Other times I just think it’s dumb. So gender roles have never made sense to me. The only problem with breaking from traditional gender roles is that it’s scary to be different, at the individual level. But other than that, I see no problem with departing from what’s conventional. Men are physically stronger, women tend to be deeper emotionally and get hormonal, and both tend to gravitate towards certain interests. But I think there’s a lot of people who don’t want to break ranks and yet would like to do more masculine or feminine things. They are afraid that their sexuality will be questioned (in the case of men) or that they aren’t mentally or physically fit for other things (in the case of women). I think these fears are keeping us from reaching our full potential. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/53 "2011-04-17T19:57:04Z")
People are actually making a big deal about the color? I though it was the idea that fingernail polish is feminine. Not that I agree: I was exposed to this as a kid. It’s one of the few early memories I still have that I know was not influenced by external sources (i.e, people telling me about it later or watching it on VHS. My preschool had it where the kids were allowed to try it out, and my friend Cash (who had a rattail) and I were playing with the nail polish as we were encouraged to do, and we thought we couldn’t get it off. I took forever to convince us that our nails are actually naturally pink (when you look through them to the finger). The one thing that never happened was anyone treating us like we were doing something wrong. And, yes, both of us are (cis) straight. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/54 "2011-04-17T20:29:46Z")
Since it seems not to have been mentioned, I’ll point out that this Dr. Keith Ablow guy was the guy that co-wrote _[The 7: Seven Wonders That Will Change Your Life](http://www.amazon.com/Seven-Wonders-That-Will-Change/dp/1451625510/ref=cm_cr_dp_orig_subj)_ with Glenn Beck. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/55 "2011-04-17T20:35:55Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > No, OP is referring to the basic gender and behavioral roles. Seeking to be a worker and provider is a behavioral role. Seeking to be a loyal wife is a behavioral role too. ‘‘Worker and provider’’ and ‘‘loyal wife’’ may involve a set of behaviors, but they can each be achieved in a variety of ways in a variety of contexts. It sounds like you see each of these roles as being limited to a specific set of functions, to the exclusion of other functions. They aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/56 "2011-04-30T04:18:19Z")
> [@biddee](#): > > [http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/04/11/j-crew-plants-seeds-gender-identity/](http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/04/11/j-crew-plants-seeds-gender-identity/) > > Very controversial article here from a psychiatrist. > > Personally I think that you should encourage boys to wear pink and girls to be tomboys. I was a tomboy but I have a daughter who is a ‘girly’ girl who wants to wear pink and dresses and makeup. > > What do you guys think? Humanity will never be free as long as we arbitrarily impose gender-based roles on people. Boys wearing pink? Girls being tomboys? Forget that. How about girls and boys being whatever they want, and assigning equal responsibility to both? Why is it that so few people understand or can even discuss the concept of **Two Genders. One Set Of Rules For All**? ARGH.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/57 "2011-04-30T21:34:30Z")
> [@biddee](#): > > What do you guys think? The article is working from a cocksuckingly stupid premise. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/58 "2011-04-30T21:41:18Z")
People love to think their kid will become what they want it to be. Do people deliberately raise their kids to become gay or trannnies? Would anyone know how? It is an appeal to those who think they can run other people’s lives . If your kid is gay ,you must have done something wrong like pained his room or toenails pink. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/59 "2011-05-02T02:42:51Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The article is working from a cocksuckingly stupid premise. The whole concept of gender identity being arbitrarily assigned by others upon an individual is itself a cocksuckingly stupid premise. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486/60 "2011-05-02T23:26:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A guess: Simple, loose clothing that more-or-less continued to fit them as they grew in an era when clothing was more expensive? Breeching - [Breeching (boys) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeching_(boys)) Toilet training and growth. Toilet training because clothing historically was a lot more complicated. A three year old getting off his elastic waist little tiny jeans is much easier than it was before decent fastenings and elastic. Growth because they do grow so darn fast and clothing was expensive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-encouraging-traditional-roles/578486.md?page=2)