# Gender identity and incarceration **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 21, 2019, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989 "2019-02-21T23:05:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/21 "2019-02-23T02:49:11Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > What the story shows is that changing how someone looks on the outside doesn’t change who they are on the inside. A male undergoing transformative external surgery is a male on the inside. Your conclusion is odd. The prosecutor said that White/Wood was an “alleged transgender female” and the story noted that White/Wood was “currently transitioning.” No information was presented regarding any actual medical procedures. Showing up with a cane or in a wheelchair is hardly medical or psychological evidence that actual gender disphoria is occurring. Further, “The prosecution say that because there is smattering of evidence in this case that the defendants approach to transition has been less than committed.” Trying to make a case based on a single individual where some nut is trying to scam the system, (with no evidence that the any actual surgery has even happened), simply fails to support your apparent claim that actual gender re-assignment fails to actually change gender. From [The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/11/karen-white-how-manipulative-and-controlling-offender-attacked-again-transgender-prison): > [@](#): > > White entered the UK prison system as transgender. However, **despite dressing as a woman, the 52-year-old had not undergone any surgery and was still legally a male**. She was also a convicted paedophile and on remand for grievous bodily harm, burglary, multiple rapes and other sexual offences against women. (bolding mine.) Solds like a psychopath, regardless of gender. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/22 "2019-02-23T02:57:31Z")
If you’re a woman who is sent to men’s prison wouldn’t you pretend to be a man, especially if you happen to actually have a man’s body, penis and all? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/23 "2019-02-23T18:52:23Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Do you think that nobody is at risk if a physically large and powerful prisoner, a probable psychopath with a history of violent sexual assault, is allowed to mingle freely and without careful monitoring in _any_ prison? > > I don’t deny that the risk is greater if this prisoner is placed in a women’s prison. But the lessons we should draw from this case are more about how we should deal with the set [all violent psychopathic prisoners prone to sexual assault], rather than how we should deal with the set [all trans people]. You are conflating two different things. I absolutely agree with your first paragraph in that a big, male, violent, powerful prisoner needs to be housed based upon administrative analysis of his situation to protect other inmates and staff. No dispute here. As far as your second paragraph, I am asserting that placing a person with a functioning penis in a women’s prison, is a different issue entirely. I am not debating the issue of the sincerity of transgendered people, nor am I taking any issue with any rights or privileges that such person will have. I am operating on two assumptions which I think are well supported: 1. If you have a biological man, with a functioning penis, who claims that he identifies as female, then full stop, that is the end of the inquiry, we do not ask for more. This has been claimed and argued in many threads. 2. Such a system will allow a man who identifies as a man, to claim that he identifies as a woman for the purposes of being assigned to a women’s prison. Again, I am not claiming that this is what most transsexuals do, nor am I claiming that the entire debate is a ruse. So, if we take these two points, then we have a loophole scenario. The man, who is a convicted felon and not a trustworthy member of society, can use this loophole to be assigned to what he believes is a buffet of sexual conquests. The state now must oblige. Even if he was previously a non-violent person, we have a situation, especially with most states barring conjugal visits, where a bunch of people who have been denied sex for years, suddenly have that opportunity. Pregnancy, STD, rape will become common, even with ONE single male in the female prison. Hell, I’m a middle aged, slightly overweight dude and I regularly get propositioned by female inmates when I visit a client. It is just human nature to desire sex. If your preference is heterosexual, your standards drop as time passes. This proposal would be a nightmare scenario that needs no sort of administrative thought to individual circumstances like your hypothetical violent prisoner. The fact that he is a man in a women’s prison is enough. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/24 "2019-02-23T22:58:15Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I think the safety of the prisoner would trump any deference to gender identity. I doubt general population in prison is very understanding of gender issues. Seems like a recipe for violence. Sending Transgender women to men’s prison and Transgender men to women’s prison would likely be a larger recipe for violence than sending Transgender people to their declared gender. I’m not sure at what point in transition should flip the prison assignment, but fully transitioned transgendered people should 100% go to the prison they transitioned to. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/25 "2019-02-24T00:27:21Z")
Some people can’t see the forest for the trees. The issue isn’t so much what to do with transgender inmates as it is that we as a society collectively allow prisons to be a place where the daily reality may consist of beating, rape, exposure to std’s and other diseases, etc. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/26 "2019-02-24T15:00:07Z")
> [@pool](#): > > Some people can’t see the forest for the trees. The issue isn’t so much what to do with transgender inmates as it is that we as a society collectively allow prisons to be a place where the daily reality may consist of beating, rape, exposure to std’s and other diseases, etc. I agree fully. The punishment of incarceration should be solely the denial of the freedom of going where you want: the beach, the mall, out to dinner, etc. The punishment should not include rape and violence. But jails and prisons are understaffed and the legislature is not going to fix it and when you say something like this to the public you get the general reply that fuck them, they are criminals, and what do you want, the fucking Marriott with room service and violins playing over dinner?:rolleyes: Until that attitude is corrected, there will be prison violence and allowing men to simply declare that they are women to be assigned to women’s prisons will be a recipe for disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Ronald\_Raygun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c67d28/32.png) [@Ronald\_Raygun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ronald_Raygun)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/27 "2019-02-24T16:15:01Z")
I would personally prefer a segregated ward or the same protections given to vulnerable prisoners. I’m a trans woman. I would expect some abuse in the female ward, but putting me in a male prison would be a death sentence. Then again, I know trans men who are slight and feminine appearing, and who have no intention of receiving bottom surgery. Housing them with male inmates would F them over, too. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/28 "2019-02-24T21:54:07Z")
[Here’s a story](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/04/life-transgender-inmate-california-prison-culture) on one trans inmate housed at San Quentin. (I learned about her on [this podcast episode](https://www.earhustlesq.com/episodes/2018/6/6/down-low).) An interesting point about the preferences of trans inmates from the _Guardian_ article: > [@](#): > > Valerie Jenness, a criminology professor at University of California Irvine who [sic] has worked extensively on the issue. Her study, based on interviews with more than 300 transgender women inmates, indicates that the majority prefer to be housed with men, despite the inherent risk for assault. > When I asked her about this surprising finding, she pointed out that, for many transgender people, **affirmation of their sexual identity takes precedence over physical protection**. Emphasis mine. Trans women are more likely to be treated like women by male inmates than by female ones. I can see that. (Elsewhere in the article, Jenness says that over half her subjects had experienced rape.) Anyway, at San Quentin, the trans inmates (I think there are fewer than 10) are housed together, separately from the others, and have gotten access to commissary items that meet their needs (e.g., makeup). I recommend the podcast if you’re curious: Lady Jae has _great_ stories. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/29 "2019-02-24T23:53:48Z")
I am confused now. So cisgender women who surgically became men, prefer to be housed with men? (Just thoroughly confused now whether “transgender women” means F to M or M to F) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/30 "2019-02-25T00:12:25Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > (Just thoroughly confused now whether “transgender women” means F to M or M to F) You really can’t work out that a transgender person would identify as the gender they transitioned _to_? It’s just so inconsiderate of people to make the world so confusing for you. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/31 "2019-02-25T00:52:21Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > You really can’t work out that a transgender person would identify as the gender they transitioned _to_? > > It’s just so inconsiderate of people to make the world so confusing for you. It is sort of inconsiderate to change the meaning of words by decree of the left and then expect everyone to understand them immediately. If a guy says he is married and I mention his wife, then fuck me for not realizing that he is gay and married to another guy. I used the language as we understood it for most of my life. I can be permitted some transition time. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/32 "2019-02-25T01:09:25Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > It is sort of inconsiderate to change the meaning of words by decree of the left and then expect everyone to understand them immediately. Jesus this is some puerile nonsense. You make it sound like rocket science, and “decree of the left” is asinine. > [@](#): > > If a guy says he is married and I mention his wife, then fuck me for not realizing that he is gay and married to another guy. No one has ever jumped your shit for that. Why are you so eager to fabricate these silly hypotheticals? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/33 "2019-02-25T01:19:52Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I am confused now. So cisgender women who surgically became men, prefer to be housed with men? (Just thoroughly confused now whether “transgender women” means F to M or M to F) A cisgender woman will generally not have surgery to change their appearance to confirm with their gender identity, because they are women. (Cisgender means that their bodies and brains are in alignment regarding gender, so no reassignment required.) A trans woman is a woman who (typically) was assigned male at birth and may or may not have had surgery of any sort. Similarly, a trans man is a man. Most men would prefer to be identified as such, and would therefore expect to be placed with other men in a gender segregated situation. To take a very easy example, [Buck Angel](https://stonewallcolumbus.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/buck-angel.jpg) would really expect to be incarcerated with other men if he ever (ghod forbid) went to prison. He has a vagina. I reckon most people would want him with the rest of the men as well. . ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/34 "2019-02-25T01:22:20Z")
Thank you Andros for the explanation part. Damn ,the guy honestly admitted his ignorance and you guys jumped his shit for it ( or couldn’t resist sarcasm) instead of being helpful. That was a bit inconsiderate I would think. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/35 "2019-02-25T01:35:11Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Thank you Andros for the explanation part. > Damn ,the guy honestly admitted his ignorance and you guys jumped his shit for it ( or couldn’t resist sarcasm) instead of being helpful. > > That was a bit inconsiderate I would think. Of course, but see, once the left has decreed something, you must not only agree with it, must not only accept their terminology, but must come up to speed and understand their terminology lest you get flamed for it. So sayeth the left, so sayeth the Lord. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/36 "2019-02-25T01:39:34Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > It is sort of inconsiderate to change the meaning of words by decree of the left and then expect everyone to understand them immediately. Nobody has changed the meaning of any words under consideration here, and we’re hardly talking about obscure or unintuitive terminology. If your faculties are not clouded by disingenuous “confusion” (the subtext of which is a bigoted inference that trans people are strange and unnatural) then with a few seconds application of common sense it’s obvious that the _entire point_ of someone being trans is that their gender identity differs from the sex that they were assigned at birth, that the _entire point_ is that they want to be, and to be treated as, what they feel they _are_. Are you seriously suggesting that it’s a reasonable to suppose that (say) Caitlyn Jenner might want to be called a “trans man” to emphasize her birth sex, rather than what she _is_? And “decree of the left” is horseshit, as is this: > [@UltraVires](#): > > Of course, but see, once the left has decreed something, you must not only agree with it, must not only accept their terminology, but must come up to speed and understand their terminology lest you get flamed for it. It’s a matter of decency and respect for other human beings. If you don’t feel that it’s worth just a few moments of thought and consideration, well - that’s who _you_ are, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/37 "2019-02-25T02:01:37Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Nobody has changed the meaning of any words under consideration here, and we’re hardly talking about obscure or unintuitive terminology. If your faculties are not clouded by disingenuous “confusion” (the subtext of which is a bigoted inference that trans people are strange and unnatural) then with a few seconds application of common sense it’s obvious that the _entire point_ of someone being trans is that their gender identity differs from the sex that they were assigned at birth, that the _entire point_ is that they want to be, and to be treated as, what they feel they _are_. Are you seriously suggesting that it’s a reasonable to suppose that (say) Caitlyn Jenner might want to be called a “trans man” to emphasize her birth sex, rather than what she _is_? > > And “decree of the left” is horseshit, as is this: > > It’s a matter of decency and respect for other human beings. If you don’t feel that it’s worth just a few moments of thought and consideration, well - that’s who _you_ are, I guess. At some point truth must come into it. I’m sure that Caitlyn Jenner wants to be called a woman. I would certainly respect that and call her (almost typed him) a woman. But I’m sure you would recognize limits on that. If Caitlyn Jenner wanted to be called “God and Lord Protectorate of the United States” you would not indulge that fantasy. But a guy named Bruce with a penis and testicles says that he is a woman, we not only indulge that fantasy, but name call those who don’t. It is almost like the Monty Python sketch. Should we stand up for his right to have babies? It is a mental illness. What other mental illness do we indulge the fantastical thoughts of the ill? What service does it do to someone to ignore a basic truth? However, we are not even talking about that. A poster asked about what a “trans woman” meant and you flamed him for it. It was certainly a reasonable question. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/38 "2019-02-25T02:29:59Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > But I’m sure you would recognize limits on that. If Caitlyn Jenner wanted to be called “God and Lord Protectorate of the United States” you would not indulge that fantasy. But a guy named Bruce with a penis and testicles says that he is a woman, we not only indulge that fantasy, but name call those who don’t. > > It is almost like the Monty Python sketch. Should we stand up for his right to have babies? It is a mental illness. What other mental illness do we indulge the fantastical thoughts of the ill? What service does it do to someone to ignore a basic truth? Everything about us is a complex product of genes and environment. When someone is trans, it means that their mental phenotype (gender identity) is not in accord with their somatic phenotype. Since men and women share 99% of their genetic material (the Y chromosome is tiny) it’s not particularly surprising that this is a fairly common natural occurrence. And mental states have just as much objective physical reality (neuron configuration) as chromosome configuration or sex organs. When _you_ say you feel that you are a man, does that involve putting your hand between your legs to check, or is it a state of mind? Is it so hard to imagine that for some people those things are not in accord? If Jenner claimed to identify as a giraffe, or as God, that would indeed be preposterous and a cause for concern. But since she simply claims that her mental phenotype is female, by what reasoning or authority do you label this perfectly natural phenomenon a “fantasy” or a “mental illness”, and claim that there is a “basic truth” that Jenner’s internal mental state is not what she says it is? Why on earth can’t you accept that this is simply part of the natural diversity of human nature? How would that threaten or harm you? You are simply an ignorant bigot. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/39 "2019-02-25T02:56:15Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > You are simply an ignorant bigot. That’s going to earn you a warning, Riemann. Insults aren’t allowed in Great Debates. If you feel you must insult another poster, please do so in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989/40 "2019-02-25T03:02:25Z")
It’s a fair cop. Apologies to all, I forgot what forum I was in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-and-incarceration/829989.md?page=3)