# Gender identity - is it even a debate at all? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366 "2010-04-26T02:53:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/21 "2010-04-26T07:19:45Z")
> [@umop\_ap\_sdn](#): > > If a person is born with a penis, does that make them a man? Having a penis only means the individual is of the male sex. What we consider to be a man is a socially constructed idea of how someone born with a penis should behave when they have attained a certain age or accomplished certain goals. Don’t confuse sex and gender because they’re really not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/22 "2010-04-26T07:25:32Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > We’re not trying to say what it’s like, we’re saying what it _is_. I am not a ball of plasma thousands of miles across, but that doesn’t stop me knowing the attributes of a star. You can know the attributes of a person without stepping into their shoes, which is what I’m talking about here. You can measure their height, shoulder width, waist-to-hip ratio, etc, but you won’t get any idea of what they’re thinking or what basic drives they have. Since it is impossible to actually be that person for just a moment, why not take their word for it as to how they really feel? > [@](#): > > You’re free to define yourself as a table if you really want to, but you _aren’t_ entitled to expect everybody else to respect your definition. There is a difference though between identifying as a specific gender and identifying as a nonhuman species or an inanimate object. Men and women are very similar in a lot of ways; both use language, eat pretty much the same foods, walk on two legs, and so forth. The differences are subtle but they’re there. What do you call someone who is male bodied but lacks the natural inclination to be “one of the guys” and has to constantly put on an act just to be socially accepted? Someone who envies female bodied people and wants nothing more than to be one? Certainly not a man - I’ve never known any men like that, have you? Perhaps a more accurate term would be: a woman in a male body? > [@](#): > > I’m sure there are religious people who feel just as insulted by the concept that we are decended from lower species. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s true. So if your definition of gender is the true and correct one, then should all transgender people just give up, convince themselves that they are deluded, and resign to being regarded as the gender that feels wrong to them for the rest of their lives? Wow, I predict a spike in suicide rates from that. Not to mention those who remain alive would be in the same boat as so-called “ex-gay” types. But hey, all that stuff has nothing to do with what is actually true, does it, so it’s a damn sad world we live in. ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/23 "2010-04-26T07:26:55Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Having a penis only means the individual is of the male sex. What we consider to be a man is a socially constructed idea of how someone born with a penis should behave when they have attained a certain age or accomplished certain goals. Don’t confuse sex and gender because they’re really not the same thing. Exactly. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/24 "2010-04-26T12:19:03Z")
> [@umop\_ap\_sdn](#): > > Since it is impossible to actually be that person for just a moment, why not take their word for it as to how they really feel? No one is disputing that they feel that way. What is under dispute is the idea that feelings determine reality. > [@](#): > > So if your definition of gender is the true and correct one, then should all transgender people just give up, convince themselves that they are deluded, and resign to being regarded as the gender that feels wrong to them for the rest of their lives? Wow, I predict a spike in suicide rates from that. Sex reassignment surgery does not seem to affect suicide rates among transsexuals > [@](#): > > The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham’s aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective. [Cite.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth) > [@](#): > > Not to mention those who remain alive would be in the same boat as so-called “ex-gay” types. But hey, all that stuff has nothing to do with what is actually true, does it, so it’s a damn sad world we live in. Sometimes, yes, it is. But transsexuals and “ex-gays” are pretty much in the same boat anyway, whether they have surgery or not. If there is some genetic component to homosexuality, then it isn’t going to be wished away. Likewise, a transsexual’s XY chromosomes aren’t going to go away either. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/25 "2010-04-26T12:43:00Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > I have to say I think it’s very common for folks to feel genderqueer. It’s just not talked about in society. > [@](#): > > Maybe if more TG people understood that the binary classification system is bullshit, then the number of TG iidentfying people would go down. Granted I do think there are some TG people (due to chromosome abnormalities or sex reassignment surgery for hermaproditism) There probably are some cases of the feeling of being the “wrong” gender that are unjustifiably intensified due to internalizing society’s binary classification. On the other hand, I agree that it is more common than thought for people to feel genderqueer. However, those who decide to pursue the expensive and time-consuming process of sex change (however far they decide to take it) are probably the ones on the extreme side of the spectrum of gender identification (assuming it’s on a sliding scale like hetero- and homosexuality), and there are lots of people in the middle who deal with their genderqueerness in other less drastic ways. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/26 "2010-04-26T14:37:50Z")
> [@umop\_ap\_sdn](#): > > You can know the attributes of a person without stepping into their shoes, which is what I’m talking about here. You can measure their height, shoulder width, waist-to-hip ratio, etc, but you won’t get any idea of what they’re thinking or what basic drives they have. Since it is impossible to actually be that person for just a moment, why not take their word for it as to how they really feel? > > There is a difference though between identifying as a specific gender and identifying as a nonhuman species or an inanimate object. Men and women are very similar in a lot of ways; both use language, eat pretty much the same foods, walk on two legs, and so forth. The differences are subtle but they’re there. What do you call someone who is male bodied but lacks the natural inclination to be “one of the guys” and has to constantly put on an act just to be socially accepted? Someone who envies female bodied people and wants nothing more than to be one? Certainly not a man - I’ve never known any men like that, have you? Perhaps a more accurate term would be: a woman in a male body? > > So if your definition of gender is the true and correct one, then should all transgender people just give up, convince themselves that they are deluded, and resign to being regarded as the gender that feels wrong to them for the rest of their lives? Wow, I predict a spike in suicide rates from that. Not to mention those who remain alive would be in the same boat as so-called “ex-gay” types. But hey, all that stuff has nothing to do with what is actually true, does it, so it’s a damn sad world we live in. It is not a sad world, just one that is not understood. I like the “woman in a male body” saying. I have talked with many homosexuals, and most will tell you that they have always felt, even as a very small child, they were in the wrong body. So what could be happening if you should believe in the spiritual nature of us humans, is that after having many lifetimes as a woman, the individual decides to try being a male. There is no gender or sex in the spiritual world, and when you decide to incarnate into the physical you choose which you will be. If you have incarnated and reincarnated several times as a woman, being a male may feel very strange. No one makes it through the physical “school” in only one lifetime. There is much to be learned and it is not uncommon to reincarnate 50-100 times in order to learn enough to graduate. Now if you don’t believe in the spiritual nature of man then you will just have to wonder about things like homosexuality, savant-idiots, 6 year olds that play the piano in Carnegie Hall, identical conjoined twins that have completely different personalities, and such other phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/27 "2010-04-26T14:41:36Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have talked with many homosexuals, and most will tell you that they have always felt, even as a very small child, they were in the wrong body. So what could be happening if you should believe in the spiritual nature of us humans, is that after having many lifetimes as a woman, the individual decides to try being a male. There is no gender or sex in the spiritual world, and when you decide to incarnate into the physical you choose which you will be. This thread is not about homosexuals, it’s about transgendered people. And I don’t want to see this thread turn into one of your patented hijacks about spirituality. Since you don’t know anything about the subject to begin with, don’t post in this thread anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/28 "2010-04-26T14:45:36Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > Well why can’t someone be both? Why is it a black and white issue? I really didn’t mean to imply that it was, and I’m sorry I did. I was actually trying to argue your point. For me “both” and “neither” are both outside the binary, and as I said, what’s wrong with that? > [@](#): > > I have to say I think it’s very common for folks to feel genderqueer. It’s just not talked about in society. Yes, as a straight guy who doesn’t fit half of society’s demands of masculinity, I actually do feel genderqueer. I don’t usually notice it, but there are times when talking about men and women, where my identification with the former group is pretty academic. > [@Shodan](#): > > No one is disputing that they feel that way. What is under dispute is the idea that feelings determine reality. > \ > Likewise, a transsexual’s XY chromosomes aren’t going to go away either. **Shodan** , I think you are missing the point. No one is disputing that a MtF’s chromosomes are XY. No one is denying (assuming they are pre-op) they have a penis. But their feelings and brain chemistry are also part of reality. And if someone has a penis and XY chromosomes, but the brain of a woman, and _cannot help but_ see themself as a woman, are you really going to say “him” instead of “her”? You don’t have to date this person, but you should be polite, right? ---
**Author:** ![AqualungBats5th](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@AqualungBats5th](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AqualungBats5th)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/29 "2010-04-26T15:10:50Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > Maybe if more TG people understood that the binary classification system is bullshit, then the number of TG iidentfying people would go down. Pretty much all trans people understand very well how the classic binary system is bullshit, having spent their lives bucking it. :dubious: Assuming the rest of society comes to agree with that, you may see fewer people identify as transgender (using the term as an umbrella for all non-heteronormative gender identifying people), but transsexual? No, those numbers will not decrease. Being treated as one’s chosen gender generally is not enough to alleviate body dysmorhpia. ---
**Author:** ![AqualungBats5th](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@AqualungBats5th](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AqualungBats5th)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/30 "2010-04-26T15:13:59Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Other then that, I agree that I don’t really treat genders differently, so it doesn’t really make any difference to me what someone wants to consider themselves. Oh, also, to everyone saying things like this: I would bet that you do in fact treat men and women differently (and have different attitudes about them), in about a thousand different ways that you aren’t even aware of. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/31 "2010-04-26T15:14:50Z")
Look, genetics don’t define male and female. There people with XY chromosomes who develop a female phenotype naturally, due to androgen insensitivity syndrome. Genes produce hormones in a developing fetus, and those hormones typically produce a male or a female phenotype. Except when they don’t. So then what? If you want to decide that people who aren’t unambiguously male or unambiguously female aren’t male or female, then what are they? Something else? If someone has some male characteristics (like XY chromosomes) and some female characteristics (like enlarged breasts), then what? How do you treat such a person? Like a circus freak? Or like a human being? Whether or not a person with XY chromosomes who wants to be a woman is “really” a woman or “really” a man misses the point. The point is, how do you treat such a person? Lock them up? Demand that they conform to your notions of how a man behaves? Or shrug your shoulders, and let them live their life the best way they can? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/32 "2010-04-26T15:16:36Z")
> [@umop\_ap\_sdn](#): > > Aren’t people entitled to define themselves and not be limited by what others think? No. No one is entitled to dictate what another man thinks. They can define themselves for themselves, but cannot tell another man how he is supposed to define them. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/33 "2010-04-26T15:23:07Z")
> [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](#): > > > [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > > > I have to say I think it’s very common for folks to feel genderqueer. It’s just not talked about in society. > > Yes, as a straight guy who doesn’t fit half of society’s demands of masculinity, I actually do feel genderqueer. I don’t usually notice it, but there are times when talking about men and women, where my identification with the former group is pretty academic. Care to share much? Has it presented serious problems in your life? Because I’m in something of the same boat. In my case, I’m a heterosexual male who doesn’t deal well with traditional male friendship, competition or ritual. This (aggravated by some mental/cognitive issues) affects wide areas of my life. ---
**Author:** ![AqualungBats5th](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@AqualungBats5th](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AqualungBats5th)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/34 "2010-04-26T15:26:59Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > No. No one is entitled to dictate what another man thinks. They can define themselves for themselves, but cannot tell another man how he is supposed to define them. Great. So (I’m assuming your a man here, switch pronouns as applies) if I decide to call you “she” and a “woman”, that’s cool, right? Cause I can define you how I want? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/35 "2010-04-26T15:37:21Z")
> [@AqualungBats5th](#): > > Great. So (I’m assuming your a man here, switch pronouns as applies) if I decide to call you “she” and a “woman”, that’s cool, right? Cause I can define you how I want? > [@Abraham Lincoln](#): > > How many legs does a dog have, if you call a tail a leg? > > Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg. Unless the dog is wearing a skirt, apparently. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![AqualungBats5th](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@AqualungBats5th](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AqualungBats5th)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/36 "2010-04-26T15:39:40Z")
And yet people that make the argument that a person must always be the gender they were born as never seem to be able to come up with a compelling reason more than “That’s the way it is!”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/37 "2010-04-26T15:43:42Z")
> [@AqualungBats5th](#): > > Great. So (I’m assuming your a man here, switch pronouns as applies) if I decide to call you “she” and a “woman”, that’s cool, right? Cause I can define you how I want? Leave her alone! ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/38 "2010-04-26T15:49:19Z")
> [@AqualungBats5th](#): > > And yet people that make the argument that a person must always be the gender they were born as never seem to be able to come up with a compelling reason more than “That’s the way it is!”. 🙂 That’s because it is. I am not anything except a man, no matter what I or anyone else thinks about it. What is, is. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/39 "2010-04-26T15:49:54Z")
> [@AqualungBats5th](#): > > Great. So (I’m assuming your a man here, switch pronouns as applies) if I decide to call you “she” and a “woman”, that’s cool, right? Cause I can define you how I want? Yes. Although I’m likely to be insulted and angry, I have no right to dictate to you. And certainly I have no right to try to tell you how you ought to think. And if I decide I’m the King of Denmark then I have no right to dictate that you address me as Your Royal Highness either. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Leave her alone! “Leave Her Majesty alone!” Please let’s keep our manners. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/40 "2010-04-26T16:18:01Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > That’s because it is. I am not anything except a man, no matter what I or anyone else thinks about it. What is, is. God almighty, what a nice perspective to have on the world. So, you’ve reviewed the literature, you’ve studied the psychology, read the case studies, compared the charts, and you’ve determined that you know what _is_ with precision, have you? You’re the one who’s finally gotten it all ironed out, then. Next time there’s a bit of a complex issue at hand we can ask you what _is_. Or is it possible that you don’t know 1% as much as you think you know about the subject and are figuratively stamping your foot to make the unpleasant topic go away? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366.md?page=3)