# Gender identity - is it even a debate at all? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366 "2010-04-26T02:53:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/61 "2010-04-26T21:16:11Z")
> [@](#): > > We aren’t talking about people who are physically intersexed. We are talking about people who have a penis, testicles, and XY chromosomes, who nevertheless insist that they are “really” women. I also agree that this is the crux of the discussion, here. I do know that there are people who physically do not fit into the binary classification, such as androgen-insensitive XYs and those with ambiguous genitalia. But they aren’t really the topic of discussion, here. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/62 "2010-04-26T21:40:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I also agree that this is the crux of the discussion, here. I do know that there are people who physically do not fit into the binary classification, such as androgen-insensitive XYs and those with ambiguous genitalia. But they aren’t really the topic of discussion, here. There is the mind and body, we don’t understand what the mind is, but know it’s something more complex then just a physical body. Sometimes this get out of alignment, so the body does not have to agree with the mind, ask anyone with phantom leg pain (someone who does not have a leg yet feels pain there as if he does). Mind and body can ‘disconnect’. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/63 "2010-04-26T21:58:53Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I’m not going to get into iton this basic level, because such a debate could take forever. But this is complete nonsense, and the cause of most of the world’s _unhappiness_. When we sacrifice truth in favor of comfort, we get neither. Your formula is based upon a lie, and will inevitably hurt people through that lie. > > The basic reason for this is that once we sttep into the realm of lies and unthought and relativism, we destroy the very things we are trying to create. If we cannot even respect ourselves and be honest, what else can be possibly respect. I guess what I find troubling about your approach is that regardless of your view on what transgenderism _is_, you would no doubt agree that the cognitive dissonance is problematic to the people experiencing it. Yet rather than trust the opinions of transgendered people themselves, or the thousands of pages of research on what it means to be trangender, you have decided that you, a person with no experience or (I presume) scientific knowledge on this topic, are most qualified to decide what will best alleviate that cognitive dissonance. More qualified, in fact, than those who have alleviated that dissonance for themselves. All in the name of ‘‘truth’’ --the truth you have invented based on your own socially constructed idea of what it means to be a man or woman. You would happily increase the pain, discrimination and suffering experienced by transgendered people by sticking to your beloved highly-contested completely subjective truth. That a transgendered male is biologically female is not contestable. That a transgendered male is a _man_ is what is at issue here. _Man_ is a social construction embodied in ideas about maleness. Maleness and man are not the same thing, and yet you continue to insist that they are. As long as we have the gender binary we will have people suffering for lack of fitting in. You perpetuate that binary, the idea that male=socially constructed idea of man, you perpetuate suffering. That is your right, but that doesn’t make you right. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/64 "2010-04-26T22:02:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If he has a penis, testicles, and XY chromosomes. Sorry, I guess I wasn’t clear. Try this: a person at work whom you had previously known as Joe, starts coming to work dressed as a woman, and asking to be called Joan. How do you know if this is a person with a legitimate (as defined by yourself) medical condition, or someone who has a “notion” which you will refuse to play along? > [@](#): > > Because one group has a penis, testicles, and XY chromosomes. So, the only possible source of gender identity problems is chromosomal? This is a settled medical fact, and we can rest assured that no other physical conditions will ever be discovered that could be related to being a transsexual? Or are you saying that only chromosomal abnormalities are acceptable physical causes of transsexualism, and that any future causes will be filed under “notions?” > [@](#): > > We aren’t talking about people who are physically intersexed. We are talking about people who have a penis, testicles, and XY chromosomes, who nevertheless insist that they are “really” women. And my point is that we don’t actually know that there are two separate groups here. There’s some strong evidence to suggest that the majority of transsexuals do, in fact, have different physical structures in their brains - structures that are found in the brains of the gender with which they identify, and not in the one they were born with. > [@](#): > > Occam called - he wants to know if you want to borrow his razor. We know that there are people who have gender identity issues due to physical abnormalities in their physiology. The area of science that studies these issues is still fairly new. I think you need to do a lot more legwork to prove that your assumptions are the most obvious and logical explanation for transsexualism before you start waving that razor around. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/65 "2010-04-26T22:03:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If he has a penis, testicles, and XY chromosomes. So… if a person grows up and lives decades with a penis, testicles, and XY chromosomes then suffers a Horrible Accident that deprives said person of penis and testicles we should now conclude that person is no longer a man and insist that person undergo surgery to more closely resemble a woman since, after all, this person who lacks penis and testicles is obviously not a man, lacking 2 of 3 defining characteristics? Sure, reconstructive surgery, but to closer approximate a normal woman, that being the category without penis and testicles, rather than trying to make this person, who thinks he is a man despite the lack of penis and testicles, as close an approximation to normal male as possible? (It’s really not as outrageous as it sounds - aside from the “live for decades” part that’s about the decision making process that used to be used to “assign” sex to babies with ambiguous genitalia) I have heard claims (and seen published research) that certain structures in the brain of MtF transsexuals resembles those of normal women rather then men, and that the reverse is true for FtM transsexuals. If there actually IS a physically difference in brain structure that would make this more of a birth defect than a mental illness, wouldn’t it? Just as some people have ambiguous genitals, and some women have hormone abnormalities that make them grow beards, and some men develop breasts, then these people would have brain structures that don’t match their physical gender. If we accept surgery for ambiguous genitals, hormone treatments for bearded ladies, and mastectomies for gynecomastia then why is it such a leap to consider surgery/hormones/whatever for brains that don’t match bodies? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/66 "2010-04-26T22:09:14Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > So… if a person grows up and lives decades with a penis, testicles, and XY chromosomes then suffers a Horrible Accident that deprives said person of penis and testicles we should now conclude that person is no longer a man and insist that person undergo surgery to more closely resemble a woman since, after all, this person who lacks penis and testicles is obviously not a man, lacking 2 of 3 defining characteristics? Have you heard of the term eunuch? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/67 "2010-04-26T22:10:46Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > If it wasn’t such a politically charged issue, any man that said he was “really a woman in a man’s body” would be forcibly given lithium by the pint. > > While I do feel for these people, I can’t see how it isn’t anything other than a serious mental illness when you have a penis and an Y chromosome to think that you are a woman. And not only do you think you are a woman, but you demand that others think so and address you in that manner. Of course it’s an illness; that’s why it requires surgery and hormone therapy to fix. It’s just not a mental illness; it’s just what happens when you have a brain/body mismatch. > [@Chronos](#): > > Personally, I’ve never really understood the concept of “gender identity” to begin with. I mean, I understand sexuality, because I have a sexuality. So I can grasp that a homosexual man feels roughly the same way about men that I feel about women. But when I hear of a person with a male body but a female gender identity, I’m puzzled, because I don’t seem to have a gender identity. If you ask me about my anatomy, I can tell you that I have a penis and testicles, and lack a vagina and ovaries. If you ask me about my hormones, I can tell you that my body naturally produces a significant amount of testosterone and androgen, but only a small amount of estrogen and progesterone. As opposed to feeling like you have a deformity between your legs; your penis is “just there”, it’s not some grotesque thing. And as opposed to your brain constantly being bathed with a balance of hormones it isn’t built for; I’m told that changing their hormones to something that matches their gender identity makes transsexuals feel a lot better all on its own. You don’t have any particular feeling of gender identity for the same reason fish don’t pay much attention to water. > [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > Look, I don’t think transsexuals should be locked in prison or asylums or anything like that. I also don’t think condoning and supporting these kinds of surgeries and hormone therapies is what is best for individuals with gender identity issues or for society/humanity as a whole. Lots of people have parts about themselves they don’t like or understand. Having cosmetic surgery to change functioning genitalia into something that appears like non functioning genitalia of the opposite sex, then taking large amounts of hormones to affect cosmetic changes, then going to a voice coach to learn how to speak in a completely different manner, doesn’t seem that rational to me. People want lots of things in life that they can’t ever have. Learning to deal with who you are and what your limitations are is an important part of being human. In other words, you want to kill them. Suicide is the common result of not giving them gender reassignment (or whatever the present term is). The reason for giving them hormone therapy and surgery is because it works. It makes them happier, more comfortable, far less likely to suicide. > [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > There’s a lot of debate about the definitions of man, woman, and gender, but the fact is that male and female mean something scientifically. A transsexual is a male masquerading as a female (or vice versa). While I assume a person could be perfectly happy living in a delusion, I feel ontologically dishonest playing along. Except that you are ignoring the actual science in favor of your fantasy science. Scientifically, a transsexual is someone who has certain structures in the brain that don’t match the gender of the body they are born in. It’s not a “delusion”. > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I’m not going to get into iton this basic level, because such a debate could take forever. But this is complete nonsense, and the cause of most of the world’s _unhappiness_. When we sacrifice truth in favor of comfort, we get neither. And that is what YOU are doing. You have a warped, unscientific definition of “man”, it is you who are denying truth in favor of comfort. All your foot stamping about how a man is someone who fits your (incoherent) definition won’t change anyone’s brain structure. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/68 "2010-04-26T22:11:52Z")
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th] That a transgendered male is biologically female is not contestable. [/QUOTE] > [@Broomstick](#): > > I have heard claims (and seen published research) that certain structures in the brain of MtF transsexuals resembles those of normal women rather then men, and that the reverse is true for FtM transsexuals. Whoops, guess I spoke too soon. I guess that too, is contestable. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/69 "2010-04-26T22:19:07Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I’m not going to get into iton this basic level, because such a debate could take forever. But this is complete nonsense, and the cause of most of the world’s _unhappiness_. When we sacrifice truth in favor of comfort, we get neither. Your formula is based upon a lie, and will inevitably hurt people through that lie. How does treating a transsexual as the gender they wish to be treated as harm them? Please be specific. > [@](#): > > The basic reason for this is that once we sttep into the realm of lies and unthought and relativism, we destroy the very things we are trying to create. If we cannot even respect ourselves and be honest, what else can be possibly respect. Can you rephrase this in a way that makes sense? Because right now, it reads as gibberish. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/70 "2010-04-26T22:23:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Can you rephrase this in a way that makes sense? Because right now, it reads as gibberish. I parsed it as something like, ‘‘Damned liberals!’’ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/71 "2010-04-26T22:25:31Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > But overall, the point is not that it does not have an effect, but that we do not know for certain what the effect is. That’s rather a distinction without a difference, if you don’t mind my saying so. If it helps to rephrase, there is no reliable evidence that SRS is any better than placebo in decreasing the incidence of social and mental health issues among transsexuals. > [@](#): > > Meyer and Reter (1979) concluded that ‘sex reassignment surgery confers no objective advantage in terms of social rehabilitation’ as compared with a group of individuals who sought sex reassignment but remained unoperated upon at follow-up. Both groups improved over time and led the Johns Hopkins Gender Identity Clinic to conclude that sex reassignment surgery would no longer be offered there. This report, and other non-surgical, psychotherapeutic approaches to gender dysphoric patients (Barlow et al. 1973; Barlow et al. 1979; Lothstein and Levine, 1980) call into question the justification for sex reassignment surgery. [Cite.](http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00048678109159409) > [@](#): > > Imagine some point in the far future. My brain is removed and hooked up to a female body. What’s my gender? Why don’t we wait and see? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/72 "2010-04-26T22:35:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s rather a distinction without a difference, if you don’t mind my saying so. I disagree. There’s a very significant difference between “We do not know the effect” and “There _is_ no effect”. One confers certainty, one confers doubt. In case of the latter, the only conclusion is that there is no effect. In case of the former, there may be no effect, there may be an effect one way, there may be an effect the other way. > [@](#): > > If it helps to rephrase, there is no reliable evidence that SRS is any better than placebo in decreasing the incidence of social and mental health issues among transsexuals. > [Cite.](http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00048678109159409) It seems to me as though this is an area of medicine where matters have changed quite rapidly over recent times. With that in mind, it seems reasonable that the situation in 1981 is not going to be entirely accurate for the situation in 2010. Indeed, unfortunetly, the brief synopsis we get of the particular paper in your link contains talk of former looks at the subject, but not the actual results of _that_ paper, so in fact we’re talking 1965 to 1980. And again, your rephrase doesn’t really work. Noting that there is \*no reliable evidence \*for something does not mean there is no effect - it means we cannot say where there is a positive effect, a negative effect, or no effect. > [@](#): > > Why don’t we wait and see? Because it’s an important topic, whichever way one feels about the situation, now? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/73 "2010-04-26T23:48:46Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > So… if a person grows up and lives decades with a penis, testicles, and XY chromosomes then suffers a Horrible Accident that deprives said person of penis and testicles we should now conclude that person is no longer a man and insist that person undergo surgery to more closely resemble a woman since, after all, this person who lacks penis and testicles is obviously not a man, lacking 2 of 3 defining characteristics? > > Have you heard of the term eunuch? Yes, yes I have. Let me rephrase this so perhaps you will comprehend my point. Not all eunuchs lack a penis. In fact, they may also retain their scrotums. Testicle removal is what defines a eunuch. Even so - eunuchs who lack both penis and scrotum/testicles are still considered _men_ in our society. Which was sort of my point - saying “Man=person with penis, testicles, and XY chromosomes” would have the corollary that eunuchs lacking a penis are not, in fact men - since the only other category in our language or society is “woman” that would lead to the conclusion that eunuchs are somehow women… but I don’t know anyone who actually believes that. When we treat the damage from accidents that destroy a man’s penis and testicles we don’t “repair” it by making him more like a normal woman, we try to restore him as closely to normal male as possible. Gee, I guess we DON’T define maleness strictly based on that triad of characteristics. Nor is it always defined by chromosomes. There are people with the XY configuration who are, externally, visually indistinguishable from normal XX women. There are people who have an XX configuration who are, again, externally visually indistinguishable from normal XY men. So it’s not just chromosomes. While for most people their chromosomes, body, and mental identity will match there are, clearly, some for whom that trio doesn’t match up. If we can accept chromosomes at odd with external appearances, and ambiguous genitals, why can’t we accept gender identity at odds with external appearances? What should we do with these people? Well, **I** think we should give them whatever maximizes their potential to live a happy and productive life. Currently, that seems to mean transition therapy as we don’t have a realistic way to change their gender identity to match their physical body. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/74 "2010-04-26T23:51:00Z")
> [@](#): > > As opposed to feeling like you have a deformity between your legs; your penis is “just there”, it’s not some grotesque thing. And as opposed to your brain constantly being bathed with a balance of hormones it isn’t built for; I’m told that changing their hormones to something that matches their gender identity makes transsexuals feel a lot better all on its own. You don’t have any particular feeling of gender identity for the same reason fish don’t pay much attention to water. How is this any different than any other body part? No, I don’t consider my penis to be a deformity; neither do I consider my hands, feet, or nose to be a deformity. Are their people who consider themselves deformed for having five toes per foot? And if a person did want to have one of their toes surgically removed, would we say that that person is reconstructing their deformed body to better match their true digital identity, or would we say that they’re mentally warped for not accepting their body the way it is? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/75 "2010-04-26T23:54:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If it helps to rephrase, there is no reliable evidence that SRS is any better than placebo in decreasing the incidence of social and mental health issues among transsexuals. Well, let’s face it, the surgery isn’t perfect. I’d be interested to know the difference between those who transitioned sufficiently to live as their preferred gender socially _whether or not_ they had surgery, vs. those who try to continue live in their birth gender. Because, it seems to be, that for the transgendered the issue isn’t entirely one of what’s between their legs, it’s that they be _treated_ as their preferred gender _despite_ physical anomalies that say otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Lunchy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Lunchy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lunchy)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/76 "2010-04-26T23:54:51Z")
He says he was a woman born in a mans body, he gets surgery! I say I was an Alien born in a human body, i get padded walls! ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/77 "2010-04-27T00:00:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In other words, you want to kill them. Suicide is the common result of not giving them gender reassignment (or whatever the present term is). The reason for giving them hormone therapy and surgery is because it works. It makes them happier, more comfortable, far less likely to suicide. Yes that is exactly what I am saying. Particularly the part of my post where I explicitly said people should be allowed to undergo sexual reassignment if that’s what they want. Look the affirmative side of this debate is throwing around a lot of claims of studies and statistics without citing them. So provide some links and educate us poor ignorant fools. You guys are acting like there is scientific proof that a male transsexual has a brain biologically identical to a female. This is disingenuous. The fact that some researchers have proposed (contested) theories that there is evidence that may suggest a biological cause to gender identity issues, is not the same as saying that transsexuals posses the abstract concept of “a female mind.” ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/78 "2010-04-27T00:26:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How is this any different than any other body part? No, I don’t consider my penis to be a deformity; neither do I consider my hands, feet, or nose to be a deformity. Are their people who consider themselves deformed for having five toes per foot? And if a person did want to have one of their toes surgically removed, would we say that that person is reconstructing their deformed body to better match their true digital identity, or would we say that they’re mentally warped for not accepting their body the way it is? The former, actually. There are documented cases of people who amputate themselves after refusal by a doctor to do the same, and after study, it was determined that cutting off the offending limb gave the patient better long-term prospects then trying to cure the mental problem. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/79 "2010-04-27T00:42:43Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > both penis and scrotum/testicles are still considered _men_ in our society. Which was sort of my point - saying “Man=person with penis, testicles, and XY chromosomes” would have the corollary that eunuchs lacking a penis are not, in fact men - since the only other category in our language or society is “woman” that would lead to the conclusion that eunuchs are somehow women… but I don’t know anyone who actually believes that. I think this is problematic in your argument as well, and is diminishing women in the process. Saying that a woman would be a man if she had more equipment, but a woman has equipment that a man does not, so you can not say removing someone’s ‘manhood’ would make ‘him’ a woman, but a 3rd category a eunuch, which is a castrated male. We have terms like this in the animal world as well, such as steer and bull, we don’t call a castrated bull a cow. So a sex change operation does not, and can not actually reassign gender, unless it is transplanted from the opposite gender. What you are really doing is castrating/deforming the person then reconstructing them in to appear externally to the opposite gender. Internally they are not the other gender, just having some massive damage, though hormonal treatment makes some difference. In many ways this would be the same as if a man was castrated by some accident then reconstructed to look like a ‘intact’ male, it’s still just a massive injury and non-existent genitalia, but it may help physiologically. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366/80 "2010-04-27T01:04:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Meh, there ain’t really men and woman in the world, just bitches and nonbitches. No, no… bitches and _sumbitches_. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-it-even-a-debate-at-all/537366.md?page=5)