# "Gender identity" is mental illness **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011 "2013-08-23T22:38:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/21 "2013-08-24T01:27:00Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > **BG** , I would argue that a general interest debate board like this dies from appeals to authority. The consensus on this board now is that this is a real medical condition and not just something that afflicts flakes or nuts. That was not always the case. That consensus now exists because people who knew what they were talking about spent years making solid logical arguments and sharing their experiences. You are welcome to read some of the links **tomndebb** posted if you want to see some of those. I assure you you are not going to say anything on this subject that lots of other people haven’t already said. You’re even falling back on the nasty habit of referring to gender reassignment surgery as “mutilation” just to make a (phony) rhetorical point. Try reading some previous discussions. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/22 "2013-08-24T01:27:12Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Yes. Not my call. His face, his call, as long as he was mentally competent to understand the risks and benefits of those procedures. Questionable assumption, in his case. One crazy dude. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/23 "2013-08-24T01:29:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Questionable assumption, in his case. One crazy dude. One can be crazy and also competent to provide informed consent. While, for obvious reasons, I don’t trust the doctor that killed him, I do trust that not every surgeon who worked on that crazy man was willing to overlook genuine incompetence for the money. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/24 "2013-08-24T03:11:05Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Stop flaunting your stupidity. Stop violating the board rules. If you need to insult a poster, take it to The BBQ Pit. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/25 "2013-08-24T03:27:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > P.S. Hate to abandon the thread, but I am late keeping a promise to myself to take a 24 hour “fast” from computers, phones, and TV, and catch up on my dead-tree reading. I will be back tomorrow evening. :eek: If you **survive!** ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/26 "2013-08-24T03:32:10Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I don’t think very many people will argue that there is a cause for this phenomenon. The issue is the cure. To use your analogy, the current treatment is akin to cutting off a limb with a broken bone instead of curing it. Only if you consider being of the destination gender a _defect._ Losing a limb is damage; being a man or a woman is not. > [@WhyNot](#): > > Do you think that every transgendered person now has gender reassignment surgery? They don’t, not even all of those who have been cleared for it. Some of them do indeed opt for therapy or therapy and hormones and never get the surgery. Yes. I’ve heard from some trans-people elsewhere that the hormones alone make them feel much better. I’ve also heard that it’s more common for female-to-male transgenders to avoid the surgery, simply because the results aren’t nearly as good as male-to-female surgery has become. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/27 "2013-08-24T03:35:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Losing a limb is damage; being a man or a woman is not. Well, actually, being a man is. :o ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/28 "2013-08-24T03:49:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Only if you consider being of the destination gender a _defect._ Losing a limb is damage; being a man or a woman is not. . . . I’d feel a little better if the surgery were a little better. Reconstructed genitals, while fairly good, just aren’t the same as real ones. The patient never fully achieves the opposite sexuality. The approximation is rough. I’m also troubled by the athletics issues. A man who has become a woman still has a man’s pelvis and other physiological attributes, and should not be permitted to compete in women’s athletics. FWIW, the bathroom issue doesn’t bug me in the slightest. I’ve never seen the point of the vast phobic taboo that affects so many regarding which bathroom people use. There are few things less sexual than urinating and defecating! If all bathrooms were unisex, I wouldn’t care in the slightest. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/29 "2013-08-24T03:52:48Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’d feel a little better if the surgery were a little better. Reconstructed genitals, while fairly good, just aren’t the same as real ones. And you know that how? 😉 > [@Trinopus](#): > > FWIW, the bathroom issue doesn’t bug me in the slightest. I’ve never seen the point of the vast phobic taboo that affects so many regarding which bathroom people use. There are few things less sexual than urinating and defecating! If all bathrooms were unisex, I wouldn’t care in the slightest. I’ve been to nudist camps. The restrooms are screened from public view and segregated by sex. Apparently, there are some things even nudists would rather do in private and out of the view of the opposite sex. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/30 "2013-08-24T04:05:54Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’d feel a little better if the surgery were a little better. Reconstructed genitals, while fairly good, just aren’t the same as real ones. For MtF transsexuals, they can be good enough to fool gynecologists these days, and have. As for the internal reproductive system; well, plenty of “ciswomen” have hysterectomies and they’d be pretty angry if someone claimed that meant they weren’t women anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/31 "2013-08-24T04:37:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > For MtF transsexuals, they can be good enough to fool gynecologists these days, and have. None of the trans people I know are interested in fooling anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/32 "2013-08-24T05:42:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > For MtF transsexuals, they can be good enough to fool gynecologists these days, and have. As for the internal reproductive system; well, plenty of “ciswomen” have hysterectomies and they’d be pretty angry if someone claimed that meant they weren’t women anymore. I hope you have at least enough respect for me to know that I never said that, nor intended to imply it in any way. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/33 "2013-08-24T06:54:33Z")
I’ll fully admit that I have no professional medical training, but I wonder why only in this one instance do a lot of people accept it. I’m a male. I have testicles and a Y chromosome. I am male by any objective definition of the word. If I think, feel, or otherwise that I am female, I am simply wrong. Just as wrong as if I thought I was a tree, a dog, or the Emperor of Japan. Are there other examples of objective incorrect assertions that are not only humored, but a social pressure against those who don’t fully accept without condition that the person is who they say they are, objective evidence be damned? I mean, I really think that I am the President of the United States, and I request that you all refer to me as Mr. President. Now, I agree that as long as I’m not harming myself or others, and otherwise functional, I should be free to life as I see fit without interference from others. If my family wants to call me Mr. President, then society should live and let live. But should I be able to demand that everyone in society address me as such? ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/34 "2013-08-24T07:05:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Are there other examples of objective incorrect assertions that are not only humored, but a social pressure against those who don’t fully accept without condition that the person is who they say they are, objective evidence be damned? There are provable brain differences. Thus, it is not an “objective incorrect assertion”. It is an “objective correct assertion”. Now, if you repeat your false claim, it is objectively correct that you are ignoring facts in order to lie and spread hate. Keep that in mind. I wonder how many people going on about “objectiveness” and “mental illness” are religious? Something tells me a good chunk of them. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/35 "2013-08-24T07:23:53Z")
Supposedly for years one of the requirements for reassignment surgery was to convince your psychologist that not only were you living as mental sex, you also had to be sufficiently “womanly” or whatever. That always struck me as totally bizarre, why couldn’t someone be a butch woman? So for a long time you had to fit the stereotypes of some old person as to what a man/woman is before you would be allowed the surgery. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/36 "2013-08-24T07:39:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Only if you consider being of the destination gender a _defect._ Losing a limb is damage; being a man or a woman is not. You’re _not_ of the destination sex: a man who has a sex change is not a woman, he’s a man surgically altered to become an effigy of a woman. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/37 "2013-08-24T09:07:08Z")
Gender has fuzzy edges. For some people on those edges, surgery is beneficial. A trichotomy of ‘male/female/have reassignment surgery’ is not last word. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/38 "2013-08-24T09:10:03Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > There are provable brain differences. Thus, it is not an “objective incorrect assertion”. It is an “objective correct assertion”. Now, if you repeat your false claim, it is objectively correct that you are ignoring facts in order to lie and spread hate. Keep that in mind. This claim has been made, it has yet to be supported by evidence, other than a vague claim that experts say it is so. It is, in any case, irrelevant. Are those brain differences alleged to exist the same as those between non-transexual men and women? No. There are identifiable differences between normal brains and those of paranoid schizophrenics. We treat those with a remorseless psychological and chemical assault, not by pretend the illuminati is really using the air loom to control their minds, or by surgically implanting tin foil into their scalps. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/39 "2013-08-24T09:13:34Z")
The issue is obviously complicated. I think you could open up the whole issue into what consitutes a mental illness and what doesn’t or even how sound the whole concept of mental illness is. My own non-expert opinion is that in some instances it seems that it may be correct to treat as a mental illness- there have been some instances where gender reassignment was clearly a mistake. However even if you were to treat all such instances as a mental illness, it seems that in many, and I would hazard a guess at saying the majority of the cases, gender reassignment offers the best outcome for the person concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/40 "2013-08-24T09:32:39Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > This claim has been made, it has yet to be supported by evidence, other than a vague claim that experts say it is so. Say what? Experts can cut open the brain of a dead transsexual and point out the differences by eye. > [@blindboyard](#): > > It is, in any case, irrelevant. Are those brain differences alleged to exist the same as those between non-transexual men and women? No. Yes. Transsexuals have brains with parts that resemble those of the gender opposite to the body shape they are born in. > [@blindboyard](#): > > There are identifiable differences between normal brains and those of paranoid schizophrenics. We treat those with a remorseless psychological and chemical assault, not by pretend the illuminati is really using the air loom to control their minds, or by surgically implanting tin foil into their scalps. :rolleyes: So, your “solution” is to forbid them the treatments that work and instead pharmacologically torture them, probably into insanity. Then you can point to the resulting suicidal lunatics as proof that they were insane all alone. A historically pretty standard method of abusing and killing the “sexually deviant”, like forcing homosexual men to take estrogen, or forcing them to have gender reassignment surgery Iranian-style. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011.md?page=3)