# "Gender identity" is mental illness **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011 "2013-08-23T22:38:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/381 "2013-09-09T03:22:27Z")
There is a certain irony here in that I’m a ciswoman who’d consider donating my unused uterus and ovaries if doing so wasn’t too hazardous and, oh yes, if I wasn’t in menopause (so much for the ovaries). Even so, no one ever seems to question if I’m a “real woman”, or my femininity, even though I haven’t biologically reproduced and don’t have an intention of doing so. Which just goes to show the argument “they can’t get pregnant therefore they aren’t real women” is a bit bogus. Again. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/382 "2013-09-09T04:03:52Z")
Just FTR, I was not advancing that argument (that transwomen do not want uteruses) as my own, and I never thought it likely to be true. It was simply evidence for the proposition that “towering feminist icons have reservations about this, casting doubt on the claim that only a tiny fringe of feminism feels this way”. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/383 "2013-09-09T10:33:55Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > That’s not a debate, that’s people reeling off their opinions. All ideas are equally good if we don’t judge them against the facts. He’s here for a debate, not dialectic. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/384 "2013-09-09T17:39:40Z")
It’s not surprising that some old second-wave feminist “icons” are backpedalling now, like Steinem. Just because they were popular doesn’t mean they were smart, or correct. Second-wave feminism had its moment and evolved to third-wave feminism, which does (generally) embrace transgender women and lesbians. Even the much-lauded Harry Benjamin was wrong on some issues, and was thought to be wrong by other transgender medical workers at the time. For instance, he gushed over how Christine Jorgensen’s pubic hair pattern was “strong evidence” she was intersex - she thought this was funny, as she had electrolysis to get the female-shaped pattern. And Benjamin did not believe any _real_ transwoman could ever be a lesbian, nor any _real_ transman gay - he felt they were either crossdressers or autogynephiliacs (although he did not coin nor use the term) or ultra-butch feminist women, and he denied them hormones and other treatment. The way Society treats transgender people is only in the Renaissance period right now, relatively speaking. Even just ten years ago if I’d come out I would have faced a much harsher and crueler world than I have now. More advances and awareness have occurred in the last 5 years than the prior 100. And in the last year than the last 5. It’s terribly exciting to see that when I take a group of t-girls to a straight club, now we’re treated like any other customers. When I go out for a power lunch with a friend who doesn’t pass, we’re treated as politely as any other ladies in the place. Clothing stores don’t bat an eye when I go shopping with friends who don’t pass - they want our money, not to castigate us. Sure abuse happens daily, hourly, and I receive reports of it every day from my sources. But it’s getting so much better, so much faster! Folks who oppose transgender full inclusion and mainstreaming are going to, within 10 years, end up no differently than those who still firmly believe that “them thar’ darkies otta stay outta our town and stop takin’ our jobs an’ our white women!” ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/385 "2013-09-09T17:56:23Z")
What an awful analogy. It might be apt if there were people going to surgeons to change their race; but if people were doing that I think most liberal people would find that discomfiting and have an issue with it and then they would _really_ want to avoid that analogy. And I reject your premise that Gloria Steinem is backtracking. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/386 "2013-09-09T21:35:19Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And I reject your premise that Gloria Steinem is backtracking. Do you have relevant citations to her comments in the '70s, '80s, '90s, '00s, and today that demonstrate a consistent pattern of expression that has not changed? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/387 "2013-09-09T22:15:37Z")
What **Slacker** is either not understanding or disingenuosly for the point of playing the “debate game” acting as if he does not get the more recent Steinem quote in which she turns her old quote on its end - stated originally as sarcasm: “Must we change the foot?” - i.e. the point then being that in those days, not understanding the difference between gender _identity_ and both gender _roles_ and sexual attraction, her argument was that changing a body to so that the gender roles or sexual attraction one wanted or experienced was, in her mind, absurd. Now she still asks the question but answers that for some the answer actually _is_ “yes.” What else **Slacker** is, is acting as if he does not get is that the claim that was made was _his_: > [@Slacker](#): > > from recent research it appears there are a decent number of feminists and lesbians who are also hostile to these people as perceived interlopers. When asked to provide a link to that research he offered up a letter signed by _a few dozen people_ and then a few quotes decades old and places the burden on others to demonstrate that there is _not_ some decent numbers and to prove that only some fringe elements currently take that position. If he’s playing the “debate game” that is what we call _losing_. You make a claim, in this case that there is recent “research” that shows a “decent number” of individuals of group X believe Y, then you upon request either provide the citation for that research or you admit that _you made the shit up_. His claim is still unsupported _even if_ a few prominent old school femnists icons _did_ still endorse that position. That (which he has NOT shown) would still only provide evidence of a couple of people and no evidence that they speak for any current “decent number,” let alone be the “research” he claimed existed. Are there polls of current femnists and lesbians that show a decent number of them are hostile to the transgendered or not? Please acknowledge that the numbers of those who are femnists and/or lesbian in America is quite large so “a decent number” of them is also not a tiny amount. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/388 "2013-09-09T23:46:49Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Do you have relevant citations to her comments in the '70s, '80s, '90s, '00s, and today that demonstrate a consistent pattern of expression that has not changed? Upthread, she specifically responded in the negative in 2012 when asked if she had modified her position. And anyone who takes “okay, if you _want_ to change the foot, fine” as a reversal of her position…well, not sure what I can do for you. It seems quite clear to me that as of 2012 she still believed that transsexuals were letting gender stereotypes and oppressive social norms push them to take what she sees as extreme measures rather than just learning to be comfortable in their own skin. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/389 "2013-09-09T23:56:44Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > If all I did was reel off opinions, you wouldn’t see nearly so many quotes in my posts. I do respond to the arguments of others, link to sources, etc. Then I am genuinely puzzled by your objection to this “becom[ing] a reading room.” ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/390 "2013-09-10T00:18:28Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > Then I am genuinely puzzled by your objection to this “becom[ing] a reading room.” Huh. One involves my reading posts, writing responses, interacting, the thrill of verbal combat. The other is just reading. Not sure what you find puzzling about that. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/391 "2013-09-10T00:20:11Z")
Yup\*\* Slacker\*\*'s evidence that Steinem (one person) currently believes the same as she did decades ago and is “hostile” to the transgendered is this quote: > [@](#): > > I don’t think we feel uncomfortable. Actually I think quite the contrary. Transsexuals are often gender-role revolutionaries because they show that gender is a fiction … The point is free will over one’s own body. … It’s the same point because I think I said, “Must we change the foot?” So if you want to change the foot, okay. [Laughs] Anyone who wants to use _that_ as evidence of current hostility of a decent number of today’s feminists and lesbians … well, not sure what I can do for you. Seriously. _Do_ you believe what you are posting or are you just playing a game? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/392 "2013-09-10T02:12:37Z")
Nope, wrong part of the quote (but you knew that). More like: > [@](#): > > \*\*Steinem: \*\*Here’s an example of the shoe and the foot that is troublesome: In Iran, apparently the homophobia is so severe that to have a lesbian child or a gay child is a disgrace and so they have sex-change operations because to have a son or a daughter then seems more normal… > > \*\*Interviewer: \*\*So that’s a change in your views? > > **Steinem:** No, it’s the same point. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/393 "2013-09-10T02:34:47Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Nope, wrong part of the quote (but you knew that). More like: Uh, you edited out the part of the quote that Steinem explicitly _said_ was her point. But you knew that. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/394 "2013-09-10T02:53:04Z")
Simple question asked. How about an answer? Are you serious or just playing debate? If you are serious and you really read that complete quote as evidence of current hostility, let alone as evidence of research demonstrating your decent numbers who are hostile then I really have nothing more to say … ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/395 "2013-09-10T04:40:17Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Simple question asked. How about an answer? > > Are you serious or just playing debate? > > If you are serious and you really read that complete quote as evidence of current hostility, let alone as evidence of research demonstrating your decent numbers who are hostile then I really have nothing more to say … It’s either cognitive dissonance or fucking around. Either way, I’m not sure there’s a way to win in this medium. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/396 "2013-09-10T12:06:30Z")
Sometimes you just have to shake your head else you bang it too hard against the wall. [Some](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/16/feminism-poll_n_3094917.html) 20% of Americans\* identify\* as “feminists” and a vast majority, 82%, endorse the beliefs that are the core of feminism even if they do not call themselves such, i.e. “men and women should be social, political, and economic equals.” 6% identify as “strong feminists.” Some indeterminate small portion of that group identifies as radfem and of that group there is some vocal few who are trans-exclusionary - a number that by all accounts I can find has decreased substantially over the years with some of the sites that claim to be radfem promoting anti-trans positions actually being fronts for conservative groups. I could understand Slacker getting taken in by some casually read article that gives the impression that there is some actual large number of feminists who are trans-exclusionary … there are _some_ clearly. But damn, the way he’s digged in, defending something that was clearly an untrue statement (he has not read of any “research” about “decent numbers” who are hostile). Mind boggling. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/397 "2013-09-10T15:55:12Z")
I haven’t gone through this thread with a fine-toothed comb, but has anyone linked to [Feminist Perspectives on Trans Issues](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-trans) (at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)? It’s quite long but may be worth a read for those genuinely interested in the historical relationship between trans and feminism. The conclusion: > [@](#): > > While early (non-trans) feminist perspectives on trans issues were marked by hostility, trans studies and politics have emerged in complex reaction and interaction with feminist and queer theory and politics as something to be recognized. Recently it seems the possibility of productive interplay between feminist and trans theory and politics as well as solidarity between trans and non-trans feminist is being realized. This suggests a promising future for trans feminist philosophical investigations. In light of the history of trans/feminist interaction, it seems that the self and its relation to oppression and resistance will be a fruitful topic of inquiry. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/398 "2013-09-10T17:57:43Z")
Some speculate that the hatred of some 2nd-wave feminists towards transpeople was purely based on a principle of radical and arbitrary female exclusionism. They felt that men were intruding or trying to force their way into their last private arena - the physical differences and social groupings among women - and for some this was the last straw. The root cause of this sort of problem is that someone who believes that transsexuals are interlopers really doesn’t believe in all the weight of nearly a century of medical evidence. Even I can recall when lesbians were castigated by some 2nd-wave feminists, who basically wanted an organization of “straight-womyn-born-straight-womyn who aren’t too butch.” They can fall back on the socialization argument (“they weren’t socialized as women, therefore they aren’t”) but that could be applied to selective and rare cases of women raised alone or predominantly in groupings of men, or who come from other cultures where feminine and masculine norms don’t line up with suburban whitebread America. I’ve even read of a radical feminist who claimed that a woman who had 6 brothers was probably “not female enough” due that social pressure. They can fall back on the “you can’t bear children/don’t have periods” argument, but then there are XX women who fall into that category as well. And where do CAIS women fit in? Or intersex persons? At its very heart, trans discrimination by 2nd-wave feminists appears more and more to have been a digging in of heels and a refusal to modify doctrine: “we can’t fully define who is feminine enough nor what a woman is, but we know 'em when we see 'em.” It’s reminiscent of early Civil Rights groups, some of whom excluded mixed-race persons because they had too much “white” in them, and more and more, exclusionary events like the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival are looking like “Whites Only” Country Clubs. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/399 "2013-09-10T20:42:34Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But damn, the way he’s digged in, defending something that was clearly an untrue statement (he has not read of any “research” about “decent numbers” who are hostile). :smack: Okay, I guess I’m going to have to admit essentially to being a little bit weaselly, so as to defend myself against accusations of outright prevarication. I would have liked to think that you all would have noticed by now that I choose my words carefully. When I use a phrase like “decent number” it is precisely because I really don’t know what the percentage is, and suspect it could possibly be small, but want to put the best spin on the case I am arguing (yup, as I said upthread I treat this as intellectual sport–sue me). So since (from my perspective anyway), a “decent number” can be like eight people, but still sounds like it matters, I used that phrase. Can we move on now? Also, you have misunderstood or misremembered what I said. The word “research” in my post was not intended to represent peer-reviewed journal articles, but my own online digging. If that was unclear, I apologise. I was not trying to misrepresent it as anything other than my own Google surfing. > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > It’s reminiscent of early Civil Rights groups, some of whom excluded mixed-race persons because they had too much “white” in them I agree with that analogy but not the conclusion. I think it was entirely reasonable for those civil rights groups to look sceptically upon these very light-skinned, blue-eyed people who claimed to represent them. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/400 "2013-09-10T21:21:35Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I would have liked to think that you all would have noticed by now that I choose my words carefully. Really? I have gotten the exact opposite impression from your posting. For example: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I agree with that analogy but not the conclusion. I think it was entirely reasonable for those civil rights groups to look sceptically upon these very light-skinned, blue-eyed people who claimed to represent them. The groups who excluded mixed race members were not excluding merely “light-skinned, blue-eyed people” and no one was being called upon or asked to “represent” anyone. That sort of broad brush declaration, devoid of actual facts and implying rather the opposite of the historical record, is pretty much the antithesis of choosing one’s words carefully–unless the words are chosen for an objective that is not appropriate to this forum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011.md?page=21)