# "Gender identity" is mental illness **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011 "2013-08-23T22:38:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/121 "2013-08-26T12:27:26Z")
I had not been aware of the SD column or the other similar thread either and my question asking for the evidence had been an honest asked from a position of honest no shame involved ignorance. Thing is there _are_ brain differences (and from a brain sciences POV pretty significant ones) that minimally predispose people to feeling like they “should be” the gender that their brain is more similar to than what their chromosomes or external organs say they are. How do we fit that fact together with our gender blind beliefs? Una - you are the most expert on this subject here. Do you think that the high degree of depression and suicidality within this population would be prevented if the brain differences were able to be easily identified early in life and treatment begun early in life? (Just your best guess requested.) I do know of a family with a boy (by penis status) who clearly identifies as female. His parents have offered him the option of pursuing treatment as he nears puberty age and he has declined for now. His greatest emotional distress comes from how the girls in the school treat him, not the males. I don’t know what I would do if I was the parent and am impressed with their sensitivity about it. They are trying to be as supportive as possible and consulting with specialty centers for guidance. Also, I am aware that _some_ who were exposed to prenatal androgens but were assigned as females surgically at birth have some trans issues but to the best of my knowledge most do not. Any guesses on why some would be so impacted and some not? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/122 "2013-08-26T13:28:12Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I’m not sure why we would call such a person a supervillain necessarily. It’s not evil as such. It’s just very complicated and costly and time-consuming and totally impractical, so it sounds more like a scheme from a movie than anything from real life. Technically people could be doing this in any sport, but they aren’t. You’re not the first person on this board to come up with this exact idea. It just doesn’t work for a lot of reasons. You would have a lot of trouble convincing people to radically change their lives like this if they didn’t want to, and even if you take someone who is a skilled young athlete, there’s no guarantee they would remain successful and be able to catch up with their peers after treatment. And you’d have to spend a lot of money because no matter how good your athletes are, most of them won’t succeed anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/123 "2013-08-26T13:39:43Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Una, thank you for the links and that comprehensive review. > > Still I have to go with Cecil’s take: the evidence (as you present it) that the procedure is safe and effective as compared top alternative choices is weak. The lack of follow up is a big issue, your proposed explanation for it notwithstanding. A study with n of 95 that shows “psychotherapy alone yielded satisfactory results for the patient 76% of the time, hormone treatment 81% of the time, and SRS 84% of the time” is the strongest bit and seems unlikely to be a trend that reaches statistical significance. The increased suicide rate may bew a selection bias issue or may not be. With great respect my friend, I disagree with the strength of the evidence. But you must of course recognize that I have a strong personal bias in this matter as well. I feel that the authors of the review (and there are actually many other reviews out there, through history) did not set the proper criteria. I almost get the impression that what they’re asking is “does surgery make a highly significant improvement in the quality of life of transsexuals” and I think that’s the wrong question. It doesn’t have to make a huge improvement, it has to make an improvement. The largest factor in the quality of life of us is how we are treated by society. Case in point: two good friends of mine just went to Suporn in June, and recently returned from Thailand last week. When they left, one was an ex-photojournalist who had to become a Pizza Hut cook to survive. The other was a Captain in the US Army who was honorably discharged for being transgender, and now works as a nursing assistant. Both of them were disowned by most of their families. One is divorced and can’t see her kids. They are both happy with their surgery. They have no regrets. But they came back to the US…and one was still a Pizza Hut cook, and the other still spending 60-hour weeks emptying bedpans. And their families don’t accept them one bit more. Another factor which goes to the gender question, “why did they need a vagina even if the evidence is weak that it will make significant changes in their lives?” and a clear answer is “because society expects them to.” Both of these women are heterosexual. They both love men. Both of them want to be a wife, have a loving and full relationship with a man. But with a penis and testes…that’s just incredibly unlikely to happen. Without surgery, they have no real chance of having that heterosexual married life, including sex. Other studies have been much more positive. WPATH refers to the following: De Cuypere, G., T’Sjoen, G., Beerten, R., Selvaggi, G., De Sutter, P., Hoebeke, P., Rubens, R. (2005). “Sexual and physical health after sex reassignment surgery.” _Archives of Sexual Behavior_ 34.6 (2005): 679-690. De Cuypere, G., & Vercruysse, H. (2009). “Eligibility and readiness criteria for sex reassignment surgery: Recommendations for revision of the WPATH standards of care.” _International Journal of Transgenderism_ 11.3 (2009): 194-205. Gijs, L., & Brewaeys, A. “Surgical treatment of gender dysphoria in adults and adolescents: Recent developments, effectiveness, and challenges.” _Annual Review of Sex Research_ 18 (2007): 178-224 Hage, J. J., & Karim, R. B. (2000). “Ought GIDNOS get nought? Treatment options for nontranssexual gender dysphoria.” _Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery_ 105.3 (2000): 1222-1227. Klein, C., & Gorzalka, B. B “Sexual functioning in transsexuals following hormone therapy and genital surgery: A review (CME).” _The Journal of Sexual Medicine_ 6.11 (2009): 2922-2939. Pfäfflin, F., & Junge, A. “Sex reassignment. Thirty years of international follow-up studies after sex reassignment surgery: A comprehensive review, 1961-1991.” _International Journal of Transgenderism_ (1998). Note that I’m dumping a “wall of cites” without discussion, which is patently unfair in a debate, but which is intended to be a source of further information offline perhaps. I’ve read all of them, but since I’ve read possibly thousands of papers on my “pet subject,” I can’t speak on any without a review. WPATH sums up the evidence in Appendix D of the 7th Issue, which I will avoid quoting at length here. They also present some studies which are contrary to their conclusions, one dealing with F2Ms IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/124 "2013-08-26T13:44:26Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So: if we got to a point where most of the top ten players came from this group, would that be fair to players who were born female? For historical context on this, let’s remember that the 6-foot-2 Richards did not enter the women’s game until age 42, and entered the top 20 of the rankings at age 45, something I don’t believe any other woman has ever done. She also made it to the doubles final of the U.S. Open the first time she played it. This is deceptive - Richards, and Richard Raskin, was already a nationally and internationally competitive player. This is by no means a case of “dude gets sex change, jumps into women’s tennis cold, and kicks ass.” Richards was incredibly accomplished, so much so that Bobby Riggs outed her just by her characteristic topspin forehand. Moreover, she had been playing and practicing extensively after she moved to California post-SRS, and building up to the tournament. These are facts on record. > [@](#): > > ETA: Ms. Richards herself [now even admits](http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2011/10/05/renee-richards-speaks-out-against-transsexuals-in-female-sports/) it was not fair, and believes the IOC should not allow transgender athletes to compete as women. Although I hate to say it of any fellow transperson, IMO Richards is a loon. Reading her two autobiographies gave me the willies at times - from an early age of inappropriate sexual contact with her mother, to full-on sex with her sister, to the split personality disorder she clearly evidences, to her self-mutilations, to her semi-suicidal forays through Europe, to her on-again/off-again/on-again gender issues, including going on illegal hormones and then getting breast reduction surgery, then going through SRS…she’s not really a source I consider credible. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/125 "2013-08-26T13:56:39Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Una - you are the most expert on this subject here. Do you think that the high degree of depression and suicidality within this population would be prevented if the brain differences were able to be easily identified early in life and treatment begun early in life? (Just your best guess requested.) Yes. But the thing is, I don’t think you have to even put anyone in an MRI. Gender dysphoric children, the ones who have not been terrorized into silence, clearly evince their gender dysphoria, repeatedly and persistently. I work with parents of gender dysphoric children directly, including one arch-conservative “Tea Party” mom and dad, who did everything possible to convince their son that he was not really a girl. Groundings, punishment, positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, psychoactive drugs, counseling…eventually, they had to admit that nothing was going to change this. They accepted it because the evidence was so convincing, even though it made them pariahs among their other conservative friends and family. The daughter is now 2 years as a girl, and _only_ showed any regret on two occasions - once when she was teased and attacked at school, and once when her grandmother berated her and told her she was crazy and was going to be taken away from her parents and locked in a “looney bin.” Tell any 8-year old that, and they’re going to be scared. Just mere _acceptance_ greatly reduces the depression and suicidal thoughts. There is a recent study out, just released last month, which I will try to find, which shows that in transgender families of kids under 18, where the parents are strongly supportive the risk of suicide drops to almost the same as any other teenager in the general population. This may be muddled greatly by the influence of hormones, which almost always have a powerful mood-improving effect - you witnessed that in me, didn’t you, over the last couple of years? > [@](#): > > Also, I am aware that _some_ who were exposed to prenatal androgens but were assigned as females surgically at birth have some trans issues but to the best of my knowledge most do not. Any guesses on why some would be so impacted and some not? Most of what I know is published on my link on Transas City upthread - if you haven’t seen it, please do. On a somewhat general question like that, I would have to initially guess that it has to do with the level, duration, type, and possibly most importantly, timing of the androgen exposure. There is a suspicion that my problems were caused by the fact that my mother was exposed to very high levels of estradiol through her entire first trimester. She was on a very high-dose fertility pill in the 1960’s, which was essentially 1 mg of estradiol, and kept taking it until the 4th month (she didn’t really realize she was pregant; I was very small and she didn’t show pregnancy early, and she thought her periods ending and the other changes were due to the pill…) But then I’m different from an average transperson; I have pseudo-ovaries or streak ovaries (I’m not having a biopsy to find out which, and I’m tired of MRIs and CT scans; it’s a moot point for me anyhow). ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/126 "2013-08-26T14:03:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It just doesn’t work for a lot of reasons. You would have a lot of trouble convincing people to radically change their lives like this if they didn’t want to, and even if you take someone who is a skilled young athlete, there’s no guarantee they would remain successful and be able to catch up with their peers after treatment. And you’d have to spend a lot of money because no matter how good your athletes are, most of them won’t succeed anyway. But one person tried it and had remarkable success…in her mid-40s. Does that not tend to sweep away a lot of those objections? > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > This is deceptive - Richards, and Richard Raskin, was already a nationally and internationally competitive player. Who is being deceptive? I wonder if anyone reading that and taking it at face value would know that as a man, Raskin had never played professional tennis–amateur only. Sure, he was a good amateur player, but there are a LOT of good amateur players. And she was well into her forties by the time she played on the women’s tour. > [@](#): > > Although I hate to say it of any fellow transperson, IMO Richards is a loon. Reading her two autobiographies gave me the willies at times - from an early age of inappropriate sexual contact with her mother, to full-on sex with her sister, to the split personality disorder she clearly evidences, to her self-mutilations, to her semi-suicidal forays through Europe… What forays? Do tell. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/127 "2013-08-26T14:15:31Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > But one person tried it and had remarkable success…in her mid-40s. Does that not tend to sweep away a lot of those objections? No. > [@](#): > > I wonder if anyone reading that and taking it at face value would know that as a man, Raskin had never played professional tennis–amateur only. Sure, he was a good amateur player, but there are a LOT of good amateur players. Those terms meant different things in tennis at that time. Before 1968, if you were a professional you couldn’t play in prestigious tournaments like Wimbledon and the U.S. Open. If you were a professional you could make money but pretty much all you could do was travel around and play exhibition matches against other well known players. Raskin doesn’t seem to have had any great success but he seems to have accomplished a little. He played in the U.S. Open five times and had a total record of 2-5. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/128 "2013-08-26T15:08:32Z")
I hadn’t known he ever played in the U.S. Open as a man (though it would have been called the U.S. Championships or “Forest Lawn” at that time; before 1968 none of the majors or “Slams” were called “Opens”, hence the name “Open era”). That is not listed on Wikipedia, oddly. But assuming your information is correct, it does change my impression of his male tennis career. Still, I submit that his age also swings the question pretty strongly the other direction. Let’s see a former Big Ten or SEC college men’s player (not an NCAA champ or anything) “transition” and hit the women’s tour in their mid-twenties and see what happens. (I suspect a top 5, and quite possibly #1, ranking, is what.) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/129 "2013-08-26T15:24:31Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I hadn’t known he ever played in the U.S. Open as a man (though it would have been called the U.S. Championships or “Forest Lawn” at that time; before 1968 none of the majors or “Slams” were called “Opens”, hence the name “Open era”). That is not listed on Wikipedia, oddly. Right, it wasn’t the called U.S. Open at the time for obvious reasons. But the information is there in Richards’ Wikipedia entry. Raskin played the event five times between 1953 and 1960. > [@](#): > > Still, I submit that his age also swings the question pretty strongly the other direction. It doesn’t. The sport was very different and I’d bet hormone therapies are also different- and if so that would actually make it tougher for the athlete. > [@](#): > > Let’s see a former Big Ten or SEC college men’s player (not an NCAA champ or anything) “transition” and hit the women’s tour in their mid-twenties and see what happens. (I suspect a top 5, and quite possibly #1, ranking, is what.) You’re probably not going to see that happen at all. But just to review what the reality looks like, you’re predicting that a guy who wouldn’t be good enough to play professionally _at all_ would be the best female player in the world after hormone therapy and surgery and a lag of four to six years compared to her WTA rivals? No. Just no. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/130 "2013-08-26T15:33:04Z")
Do you dispute that such a player could beat the top women without the surgery and hormones? ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/131 "2013-08-26T15:46:37Z")
Why do discussions about transgender people always degenerate into sneaky things that might be done in bathrooms and in sports? As the mother of a trans girl–fully human, not trying to trick her way into national championships of any sort, just trying to be her own authentic, wonderful self–this depresses me greatly. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/132 "2013-08-26T15:56:55Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Do you dispute that such a player could beat the top women without the surgery and hormones? Probably, yes. > [@Emiliana](#): > > Why do discussions about transgender people always degenerate into sneaky things that might be done in bathrooms and in sports? There could be a couple of different reasons. I think one is that people just find it more fun to talk these kind of minutiae about than the risk of depression and suicide in people who are TG. But I think it’s also because some people see it as delusional or deceptive condition, so they look for ways people could use that identification to try to get one over on the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/133 "2013-08-26T16:14:15Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Do you dispute that such a player could beat the top women without the surgery and hormones? Hard to say if the surgery and/or hormone treatments would effect her playing. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/134 "2013-08-26T16:27:46Z")
I have another technical paper on transgender athletes in sports which is not ready for publication. But I will share some excerpts from it. One telling account is that of Janet Furman Bowman, formerly Jim. I will quote from my paper below: > [@](#): > > A 6-Minute Difference > > An especially poignant case of how much hormones can change our performance was illustrated in an extensive interview with Janet Furman Bowman (the article is available for free online, and I strongly recommend it, as it’s about a lot more than running). As a man – Jim - she was a hardcore distance runner who at one time was able to run a 5:05 mile and a marathon in 3 hours and 1 minute. After a lifetime of agonizing gender dysphoria, she realized that the only way he could survive was to transition to female and become Janet. > > After 8 months on hormones, however, she received her first real shock about her performance. She had noticed during the 8 months, while practicing with her teammates, that she had to push herself harder and harder to keep up. But she hadn’t thought much of it – all runners have varying performance, so it was no big deal. While running her first 5k after she had started hormones – a race she had never finished in more than 20 minutes – she gave it her all, and was astonished to find she ran in 22:43. But the bad news didn’t end there - despite all her efforts, she never again ran a 5k in less than 23 minutes. When she was in peak form as a man, she tended to run at about the 75th percentile for men. Now, she runs at the significantly slower 75th percentile for women. > > While Janet does not regret her transition in the least, she does regret that she can no longer even practice with her old gang of guys, because as a woman, she just can’t keep up.(Gorney) > > Gorney, Cynthia “A 6-Minute Difference” Runner’s World 4 May, 2005. Accessed 30 June, 2013. > [@](#): > > All of this calls into question: why do the general public and athletes focus so much on genitals and natural hormones, and not other genetic advantages? Basketball is clearly over-represented by men over 7 feet tall – should we have a rule which handicaps players based on their height? What about Michael Phelps and Usain Bolt – just looking at their bodies is all the evidence needed that they have a genetic physical advantage. Yet has anyone filed a protest over the length of Phelps’ arms? > > … > > Speaking on the subject of the advantage of transsexual women soon after Renee Richards’ court victory, popular sports writer Dick Young opined that “fair and equitable competition” in women’s tennis was no more. “Is it fair that [Richards’ potential female competitors] be asked to compete against a 6-foot-2, 142-pound altered male? Is this what we recognize as the goal for balanced participation in sports?” However, another sports writer, Dave Kindred, rebutted Young’s by arguing that the whole point of sports competition was “unfair advantage.” Meaning that “the nature of athletic competition is the exploiting of advantages, i.e., what propels one opponent past another, why there must be a winner and a loser. … To reduce sport to a single level of competence is to rob it of life.” (Pilgrim) > > Pilgrim, Jill et al. “Far from the Finish Line: Transsexualism and Athletic Competition” Fordham Intellectual Property, Media and Entertainment Law Journal 13.2 (2003): 495-549. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/135 "2013-08-26T16:28:19Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > Why do discussions about transgender people always degenerate into sneaky things that might be done in bathrooms and in sports? > > As the mother of a trans girl–fully human, not trying to trick her way into national championships of any sort, just trying to be her own authentic, wonderful self–this depresses me greatly. Because one of the strongest arguments in the whole debate is “So what? What is the harm in someone being a little bit different? Is the world running out of room for types of people?” Bathrooms and tennis is all they’ve got. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/136 "2013-08-26T16:33:29Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Do you dispute that such a player could beat the top women without the surgery and hormones? > [@Marley23](#): > > Probably, yes. Sorry, this wasn’t clear. Yes, that male player could probably beat a top female player. After treatment you’re left with a woman who might taller and stronger than the average WTA professional (depending on what you started with) but who probably wouldn’t be exceptional in any way as a female tennis player. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/137 "2013-08-26T16:33:57Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I have another technical paper on transgender athletes in sports which is not ready for publication. But I will share some excerpts from it. > > One telling account is that of Janet Furman Bowman, formerly Jim. I will quote from my paper below: Talk about a perfect follow-up to my post! Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/138 "2013-08-26T16:38:00Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > Why do discussions about transgender people always degenerate into sneaky things that might be done in bathrooms and in sports? Because IMO they know that those are hot-button visceral topics which poison the debate and reinforce their agenda, which comes down to “transpeople are icky and they scare me.” It’s a propaganda campaign - they fill nervous suburbanite heads with images of hairy men in dresses abducting their children from mall bathrooms, and of 6’6" ex-linebackers flattening women on the soccer field, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/139 "2013-08-26T16:45:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Talk about a perfect follow-up to my post! Thank you. I wish I could finish my paper; hopefully this next month. I will also state that in all my research on transgender athletes, I only found one, single case where it could be argued that the transgender athlete had an advantage which made a difference - that of a veteran’s over-50 epee fencer, where her height being so much more than her opponents gave her a reach which was very difficult to beat. But it’s difficult to say - the number of women who compete in the veteran’s over-50 epee is small and very highly variable in terms of health and ability. I think the sample size in that sport is somewhat small. I was a competitive fencer - I say _was_, because after I started hormone treatment, my body lost muscle so quickly it was scary. I lost stamina too, and found that where I used to be able to fence 2 hours until I could wring out my jacket, now I’m limited to an hour. My speed decreased as well, and like many transgender people who start hormones, my sense of balance and distance changed, which meant I was even getting my butt kicked by novice fencers until I could re-learn balance and distance. I’ve managed to claw my way back up to being about 80% the fencer I was before hormones - and mind you, I didn’t really have any testosterone to speak of before. It’s just the massive levels of additional estrogen have changed me so profoundly, it boggled my mind at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011/140 "2013-08-26T18:16:32Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > … like many transgender people who start hormones, my sense of balance and distance changed, which meant I was even getting my butt kicked by novice fencers until I could re-learn balance and distance. Exactly what happens to many cis-people when their hormones kick in, by the way; with girls it tends to be worse for those with more curves, with boys for those who keep shooting up; in any case, your body changes faster than your mind can adjust. Hormones don’t give a shit whether you’re trans or cis, unlike people. They’re equal-opportunity screwers of balance and coordination. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identity-is-mental-illness/667011.md?page=8)