# Gender identy: What does it mean to "feel like" a man/woman? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 3, 2003, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149 "2003-11-03T14:26:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/161 "2003-11-09T04:26:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > **I’ve never understood sexual preference. Surely, on paper, sex with women has to look better than gay sex. I would expect some desire to give it a shot (isn’t gay sex just an emulation of het sex).** Sorry, I just can’t let this go unchallenged. In what sense does hetero sex look better on paper than gay sex? And in what sense is gay sex just an emulation of hetero sex? When I’m with my partner, we’re not “emulating” anything; we’re simply two men making love. If, for example, I’m fucking him, he’s not “emulating” a woman; he’s simply a man getting fucked. Nor am I treating him like a woman. We are both men, and regardless of what we’re doing, there’s nothing in our relationship that’s an “emulation” of anything else. When I’m with my partner I can feel pleasure that is so intense, it’s almost unbearable. But the same exact physical act, if my partner were a woman, would be a total turn off for me. I have no desire to “give it a shot.” ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/162 "2003-11-09T05:29:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fish \* > \*\*I think I finally understand where you’re coming from in this argument. I believe you are looking for an equation and a simple formula that applies to everyone, a single question anyone can answer. \*\* No, I’m looking for a complex question anyone can answer – like a question involving the definitional criteria for this concept people keep referencing. > [@](#): > > \*\*For the people involved, and especially for the people whose lives are affected, it is anything but pointless. I think I’m most sympathetic to Daniel because, like him, if I had the opportunity to go through a magic mirror and try being female for a while, I’d do it without a second thought (if there was a way back, of course). However, I am still attracted to women, despite also being intrigued by the idea of being one. What’s more, I’ve felt this way since I was a very small child. \*\* So you’re suggesting that you have an innate desire (however mild) or preference for being female. > [@](#): > > \*\*There is no future being with a Gender-Measurer or a Identity-Definer so we can, like the blind man, look up the definition in the back of a book which was written on someone else’s authority. \*\* No authority is needed, merely a reference to objectively determinable properties. > [@](#): > > **A better analogy is like deciding the exact point where “pink” becomes “red.” Yes, we all have eyes and most of us can see well, but all we can say is "we know it when we see it."** Poor reasoning. If we know it when we see it, we should be able to identify it on a color scale verging from red to white. If you know it at all, an algorithm for determining the status of “pinkness” for specific visual input patterns. This algorithm can be duplicated and analyzed. Lack of a consensus answer? You haven’t even settled on a consensus question yet. ---
**Author:** ![cajela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cajela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cajela)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/163 "2003-11-10T00:06:20Z")
I once did an online quiz (long forgotten the URL, sorry) about how I was doing as a trannie… It told me I had no hope of passing as a woman, ever. In case you are not sure, i _am_ a woman. I rarely wear dresses or makeup, never ever high heels, and i ride a motorcycle and work with computers and have a physics degree. I did answer pretending I’d had full surgery, but it still wanted me to wear high heels and makeup… Now curiously, a couple of people I knew who had M-\>F surgery told me that they had to lie to their doctors about the girly-girlness of their identities. They wore flowered frocks and heels and makeup until it was done, when they moved back into jeans and docs. So yeah, I still don’t get the point, and I tried. When I didn’t want to be girly, I thought bugger that, i was damn welll going to do what i wanted even if other people thought it wasn’t feminine. And a lot of women agreed with me - this little feminist movement thing y’know. It never once crossed my mind that I was a man trapped in a woman’s body. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/164 "2003-11-10T03:00:00Z")
Because obviously wearing jeans and riding motorcycles was intended by nature only to appeal to males. You’re a sick, sick person-who-isn’t-sufficiently-“female”, **cajela**. Hopefully we’ll one day find an effective treatment for people like you, so that you can all go back to beehive hairdos and high heels. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/165 "2003-11-10T19:47:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cajela \* > So yeah, I still don’t get the point, and I tried. When I didn’t want to be girly, I thought bugger that, i was damn welll going to do what i wanted even if other people thought it wasn’t feminine. And a lot of women agreed with me - this little feminist movement thing y’know. It never once crossed my mind that I was a man trapped in a woman’s body. Maybe you’ve got one of those “male” brains.😉 FWIW, I find “tomboy”-type women really sexy. (I am male.) ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/166 "2003-11-10T19:58:52Z")
**Cajela** : So, can you define what it is that does make you feel like a woman? Is it simply the fact that you have a vagina, or does it go deeper than that? Barry ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/167 "2003-11-11T03:17:58Z")
Okay, things are getting a wee bit hectic here in the Gender Corral. That’s okay. The problem is that we are really working with very primitive, evolving terminology in an area that for a good quantity of folks is an absolute emergency. “Objectively determinable quantities,” here, is something of a chimera, since we’re talking about a great many things all at once, all experienced to widely varying degrees and in widely varying ways by many people. Not all of them are easy to describe; not all of them even have words yet. Some of them are or seem at present to be physiological, some are psychological, and some are societal. Things like: gross anatomy (normative or intergendered, primary or secondary); genetics; hormones; gender of rearing; exposure to diverse gender roles; how much one is “gendered” in one’s day-to-day life; name; titles used; sexual orientation and preferences; proximity to gender stereotypes, both subtle and gross; state of self discovery; religion; and inside all of that, a spark inside you telling you ineffably who you are. All these things can contribute to an individual’s understanding of their gender; none of them have to. What they all seem to have in common is that they have something to do with these two poles we’ve set up for ourselves in our society. Many, many people find themselves varying distances away from those poles - the question is why, and what is the result, and what should they do about it? And the answers are different in every case. Look at all the testimony we’ve had in this thread: We have people with male bodies who identify as men, but have no particular feeling about that; people who were assigned male at birth and who are quite sure that was a mistake, and have done their level best to correct that error in all the places society makes it; people who enjoy their male bodies but have a real problem with everything society tacks onto it; men whose gender identity is associated with their attraction to women; women whose gender identity is associated with their attraction to women; people with female bodies and a very strong sense of being a woman; and so forth. Everyone is in different places with their gender identity. This is really confusing, because we’re used, at least as an ideal, to a set-up where all of this is reduced to one of two circles on a scantron card. Gender is supposed to be a true/false test; we’re finding it out to be an essay question. That’s what’s making life difficult for everyone. It’s hard to start with, “well, check in your pants,” and try to understand how it could be the fruit of an incredibly complex and often painful process of self-discovery. Hell - I can’t explain nine-tenths of the rest of my psyche using “objectively determinable quantities,” either. That doesn’t mean it’s not there or it’s not important or it doesn’t have serious impacts on my life. And this in an area where we _expect_ a wide range of variation. So yeah, it is difficult. I can’t show you my heart; I can’t tell you in objectively determinable quantities what it’s like to live in here; can’t justify to you my identity as a non-trans genderqueer gay man. What I can do, though, is encourage you to look. Even without perfectly understanding the nature or origins of the range of gender identity, surely we can acknowledge, just by looking through this thread, that it _is_ diverse, and that the two tick-boxes aren’t adequate. And then, once we’ve realized how complex this is, we could start taking people’s word on their gender, just as we take their word on how they feel about other things. ---
**Author:** ![cajela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cajela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cajela)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/168 "2003-11-11T07:35:49Z")
**godzilla** , I’m one of the people saying that I don’t really get it either. I know that i’m a woman, but it seems to me that it’s an anatomical thing. There’s evidence, I can look. Like you, I can see the actual anatomy - breasts, vagina, clitoris, check, yep, all there. Unlike you, I like both girls and boys, so sexual preference is no help there. When I was growing up everyone said I was a girl; and I never saw any reason to disagree. They also said “Girls can’t do X”, and I disagreed with that statement without disagreeing with the specific label. There was a cute cartoon I had pinned on my walll for a while - a stroppy cranky girl saying “Well, if I get my natural feminine instincts biologically, i’m not having you tell me how to behave.” What i don’t get is the depth of feeling that is out there, since my own experience is so different. I do _see_ that it is there, but it makes no sense to me. i used to think it was a gender-role thing. But now I’ve met those two trannies who fudged the gender role thing, because that’s what their doctors wanted, that’s clearly not it at all. Oh, and I hate the phrase “makes you feel like a woman” - the song, ads for girly knickers, whatever. Nothing “makes me feel like a woman”. I’m me, not some generic category. (Obvious joke excepted 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/169 "2003-11-11T13:16:13Z")
Hey **'zilla** - I just have one little wrinkle to throw into this discussion, based on something I’ve learned recently. I believe we’re both of an age to remember the stereotyping against which women in the 1970’s struggled mightily - that women are by definition emotional, irrational, timid, disorganized, scatter-brained and not as sharp as men. And bad drivers. Well, I’ve always done all I could to live the opposite of those traits - I can’t claim I’m never a space cadet, but I’ve definitely not been timid or irrationally emotional, and I usually feel as sharp as the men in my company. Except for now, ever since I became pregnant. I’m carrying twins so the extra hormones might explain why the effects are so powerful. I’m now as timid and emotionally unpredictable as any wife in an old B&W sitcom. Plus I drive differently, because my reaction time is much slower and I’m fearful. And my thinking is fuzzy & forgetful; I just can’t string my thoughts together. But I did manage to gather my wits sufficiently to conclude that perhaps what I’m experiencing explains the stereotype, which dated from a time (before the pill) when women spent a much larger part of their lives being pregnant. BTW, **matt\_mcl** , that was lovely! Although I feel like asking, is that some fruit in your pants or are you just happy to see me :). ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/170 "2003-11-11T13:27:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > **Look at all the testimony we’ve had in this thread: We have people with male bodies who identify as men, but have no particular feeling about that; people who were assigned male at birth and who are quite sure that was a mistake, and have done their level best to correct that error in all the places society makes it; people who enjoy their male bodies but have a real problem with everything society tacks onto it; men whose gender identity is associated with their attraction to women; women whose gender identity is associated with their attraction to women; people with female bodies and a very strong sense of being a woman; and so forth.** Well, I suppose this could lead one to two separate conclusions. First, that “gender identity” is a very real concept that simply cannot be strictly defined and which can differe from one individual to the next. Second, that “gender identity” is not a real concept in the first place. I think that what **TVAA** was getting at is that if a concept cannot be strictly defined and instead means something different to whoever talks about it, it can’t really be said to exist in the first place. Of course, I’d like to see somebody come up with a strict defintion of “love,” now that I think about it… Barry ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/171 "2003-11-11T13:38:12Z")
I have a question for folks who are transgendered in some form or another. I have no problem respecting your self-reporting of your own gender identity; I’m wondering whether you believe it’s important to acknowledge someone else’s identification of your gender. Because our society is gendered in some areas. A woman with a biologically male body is going to make other women uncomfortable if she tries to shower with them at the gym, or use the same dressing room at the department store, or possibly even use the same restroom with them at a restaurant (depending on how obviously her body is male). Many male heterosexuals or female homosexuals would be uncomfortable dating a woman with a biologically male body. At the same time, there are plenty of people who are uncomfortable with a biologically male woman ( **Kellym** , I know the term is inexact, but it’s the best I can do without using a paragraph-long label) wearing a dress or high heels or makeup, using a feminine name, or even self-identifying as female. Where, then, is the line drawn? Where should it be drawn? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/172 "2003-11-11T13:44:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by godzillatemple \* > \*\*First, that “gender identity” is a very real concept that simply cannot be strictly defined and which can differ from one individual to the next. \*\* Then it’s not a real concept. Which meaning of ‘love’ would you like a definition for? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/173 "2003-11-11T14:02:10Z")
**TVAA** , clearly in the sentence you quoted, it’s not a real concept; it’s a set of real, related concepts. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/174 "2003-11-11T18:47:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*\*\* Then it’s not a real concept. > > Which meaning of ‘love’ would you like a definition for? \*\* “Love: A term which has no meaning if defined.” - John Ralston Saul, _The Doubter’s Companion_ I guess I don’t understand what you mean by a real concept. A concept can be difficult-to-impossible to describe and intensely personal, but still have a major impact on people’s lives. Any emotion, for example. I look at it as a web of concepts, as I described in my post above, any of which can affect different people to different degrees. It may be that it’s somewhat easier to deal with the individual sub-concepts within gender. I don’t know. It also so happens that this particular web of concepts is even more difficult, because most of our society is set up around looking at it in a completely different and much more simplistic way than we’re used to. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/175 "2003-11-11T18:50:00Z")
I might point out that people are being denied jobs and medical service, thrown out of their homes, and even being assaulted and killed over this “unreal concept,” so however you want to identify it, it behooves us to understand it to some extent. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/176 "2003-11-11T19:50:51Z")
So we meet again, Mr. Saul. Dodge the issue, will you? Dodge _this_. [BLAM!] ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/177 "2003-11-12T14:24:13Z")
How much of this gender identity/confusion thing, is socialization, mores, traditional roles, artificial discrimination, societies expectations, our history, and our customs? If there was a way to separate out the superficial, subjective, artificial differences our society places between the sexes, would most men and most women still “feel confortable” with their sex? In other words, what if the roles and expectations of the 2 sexes were more differentiated(as they were in the past) and reversed(but not changing the most overt and obvious physical differences and not changing the basic biology of sex differences)? For example, what if males and females were expected by society to live in opposite clearly differentiated roles, as they were say back in the 1950’s(or 1850’s) before there was gender blending? Would todays men still be confortable feel very much “male”, and would todays women still feel very much female ? If our society pressured/required/encouraged all males to wear dresses, makeup, look pretty, stay at home and take care of the house and raise the children, if we had most of our leaders in business and in politics being women, if we never ever once had a male president of the United States, if our congress was 90% female, if 90% of our corporations and businesses were led by women, if we only drafted women and not men, if we did not let men go into combat, etc. If it was women who were physically stronger than men, if it was women who were the sexual agressors, if it was women attacked men and raped men instead of the opposite, if men were afraid to walk the streets alone at night and not women, if it was women who had most of the construction jobs, if police and judges were mostly women, if most of our prisons and criminals were overwelmingly female instead of male, if men were never given equal rights under the United States Constitution(attempts to get an ERA for men being rejected), etc. What if everyone made jokes about dumb male blondes? What if all the car mechanics were women, and any man that came in to get his car fixed was talked down to as not being able to understand anything mechanical? What if all of our generals all over the world were women, and all of the inventions were discovered by women? What if men going to college, medical school, law school, etc was a very rare thing indeed for any man to do and getting higher education was very recently allowed for males? What if it was women who wrote the Bible and God was a woman, Jesus was a woman, Budda was a woman, and all of the leaders of all of the religions of the world were female? What if there were many countries, eg the middle east, where men had to wear burkas and could not show any part of their bodies except for their eyes, and if a man and woman committed adultry in those countries it was the man who was stoned to death? If it was our custom for women to ask men out, for women to do the proposing for marraige, and if it was improper for a male to make sexual advances to women, if it was generally accepted for women to be strong and macho and never cry, but men were expected to be pretty and dainty, etc? What if most of professional sports were women? and it was mostly women and girls who played, watched, read about and were fixated on professional sports? If most of our doctors were women and most of our nurses were men? What if all baby boys from the time they were born in the hospital were all dressed in cute pink dresses and the girls were dressed in blue and were given catchers mits by their aunts and grandmothers? What if men could be arrested in the United States for going topless, but women could? What if all boys were given pretty frilly dresses and dolls for Christmas and all girls were given toy trucks and sporting equipment? Would most of todays men still feel “confortable” being male? ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/178 "2003-11-12T14:31:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by fessie \* > \*\*Hey **'zilla** - I just have one little wrinkle to throw into this discussion, based on something I’ve learned recently. > > I believe we’re both of an age to remember the stereotyping against which women in the 1970’s struggled mightily - that women are by definition emotional, irrational, timid, disorganized, scatter-brained and not as sharp as men. And bad drivers. > > . \*\* Yeah, what if no one gave a second thought to see a woman(wearing uncoordinated colors) spitting on a public sidewalk? ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/179 "2003-11-12T14:38:36Z")
**Susanann** : I never said that I necessarily (or always) feel “comfortable” as a man. As I explained in my OP, I don’t match many of the stereotypes of male behavior, and often feel uncorfortable as a result. But as long as I have a penis and an insatiable attraction to women, I have no doubt whatsoever that I am, in fact, a man. In other words, my sense of “gender identity” is based entirely on biology and sexuality and has nothing whatsoever to do with my comfort level. Which is why I become confused when somebody says that they are biologically male and sexually attracted to women, but nevertheless “feel like” a woman. It just doesn’t compute for me. Barry ---
**Author:** ![phraser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a88e4f/32.png) [@phraser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phraser)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149/180 "2003-12-20T01:10:12Z")
Wow, i can’t believe i missed the developments in this thread… but Hooray for **KellyM**! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-identy-what-does-it-mean-to-feel-like-a-man-woman/211149.md?page=8)