# Gender neutral? I've had it. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 10, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265 "2009-10-10T02:05:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/1 "2009-10-10T02:05:50Z")
From twitter: “You may follow NilaNguyen as well by clicking on the “follow” button on their profile.You may also block NilaNguyen if you don’t want them to follow you.” Gah! That’s awful. From now, if I can remember to, I’m going to refer to anyone whose gender I don’t know as “it”. Like so: You may follow NilaNguyen as well by clicking on the “follow” button on **it’s** profile.You may also block NilaNguyen if you don’t want **it** to follow you. If that’s good enough for a cat, it’s good enough for me. Peace, mangeorge, the grammer commie. ---
**Author:** ![freckafree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freckafree/32/3050_2.png) [@freckafree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freckafree)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/2 "2009-10-10T02:50:01Z")
Well, you’re clearly not the spelling commie, since it’s grammar, not grammer. And you’re not the grammar commie either. The possessive of “it” is “its.” “It’s” is the contraction of “it is.” ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/3 "2009-10-10T03:43:41Z")
[grammer commie](http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n128/Dragonboyjgh/dragonboyjgh%20originals/slap.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/5 "2009-10-10T08:39:06Z")
It’s grammar Nazi 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/6 "2009-10-10T08:53:42Z")
I see what you’re getting at: It puts the lotion on its skin… ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/7 "2009-10-10T08:56:18Z")
I prefer “they” to the very awkward and irritating “he/she”. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/8 "2009-10-10T09:09:31Z")
OPic fail. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/9 "2009-10-10T11:43:23Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > From twitter: > “You may follow NilaNguyen as well by clicking on the “follow” button on their profile.You may also block NilaNguyen if you don’t want them to follow you.” > Gah! That’s awful. Why is it awful? What’s the option? “You may follow NilaNguyen as well by clicking on the “follow” button on his/her profile.” Or do you want everyone to have to gender themselves just to belong to a site like Twitter and other social networking sites where identifying yourself as a female, particularly, equals harassment? (And in many environments, being bombarded by dieting ads.) And what about people who don’t identify as either him or her? Or should everyone have to categorize themselves into an M or F marked box to appease your particular wish for a completely outmoded language ideal? ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/10 "2009-10-10T12:19:36Z")
It’s the plural/singular that gives me a rash. “NilaNguyen has changed **their** profile” is wrong and irritating. It should either read “NilaNguyen has changed his profile” if you don’t know the gender, or “NilaNguyen has changed her profile” if you know that’s a woman. “Their” is only appropriate when there is a plural antecedent. We got along fine for centuries with the understanding that “Everyone to his own way” meant everyone, men and women. Le Ministre, grammar fascist. ---
**Author:** ![Buckler\_of\_Swashing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Buckler\_of\_Swashing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buckler_of_Swashing)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/11 "2009-10-10T12:50:04Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > It’s the plural/singular that gives me a rash. “NilaNguyen has changed **their** profile” is wrong and irritating. It should either read “NilaNguyen has changed his profile” if you don’t know the gender, or “NilaNguyen has changed her profile” if you know that’s a woman. “Their” is only appropriate when there is a plural antecedent. We got along fine for centuries with the understanding that “Everyone to his own way” meant everyone, men and women. > > Le Ministre, grammar fascist. How about we make it ‘her’ by default and ‘his’ if you know it’s a guy? I’m sure we could get along fine for another few centuries like that, unless a bunch of men suddenly decide they have a problem with female default that they don’t have with a male one. I know I would be _totally shocked_ to find out that was the case. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/12 "2009-10-10T13:47:32Z")
‘their’ and ‘you’ are both plural and have become acceptable to use as singular. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/13 "2009-10-10T14:14:49Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > ‘their’ and ‘you’ are both plural and have become acceptable to use as singular. Out of frustration. That will work. “You all” in **its** (I always make that mistake) forms is plural. I think “you” has become acceptable as plural. I was making a joke with “grammer”. Anyone with branes could see that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/14 "2009-10-10T14:21:25Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > It’s the plural/singular that gives me a rash. “NilaNguyen has changed **their** profile” is wrong and irritating. It should either read “NilaNguyen has changed his profile” if you don’t know the gender, or “NilaNguyen has changed her profile” if you know that’s a woman. “Their” is only appropriate when there is a plural antecedent. We got along fine for centuries with the understanding that “Everyone to his own way” meant everyone, men and women. > > Le Ministre, grammar fascist. Nonsense: the use of “their” as the gender-neutral third-person pronoun goes back at least as far as [Chaucer](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-the2.htm). And “his” as gender-indeterminate is ridiculous in some cases. Consider: “Lisa and Jim are fraternal twins; each of them loves his sibling.” It only works in the cases where it works because we can unconsciously assume that a gender-indeterminate individual is masculine. When it becomes clear that such an assumption is unwarranted, it really rankles. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/15 "2009-10-10T14:31:40Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Why is it awful? What’s the option? “You may follow NilaNguyen as well by clicking on the “follow” button on his/her profile.” Or do you want everyone to have to gender themselves just to belong to a site like Twitter and other social networking sites where identifying yourself as a female, particularly, equals harassment? (And in many environments, being bombarded by dieting ads.) And what about people who don’t identify as either him or her? Or should everyone have to categorize themselves into an M or F marked box to appease your particular wish for a completely outmoded language ideal? I don’t use twitter. They just send me these notes. I want an alternative to the use of “their” to refer to a single person without revealing thay person’s gender. “The worker dropped a hammer and injured their toe.” Beautiful, huh. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/16 "2009-10-10T14:37:08Z")
The singular “they” is the solution to the problem which does the least violence to the language. All other proposed solutions are worse. Get over it. (I have always preferred the contraction of “He or She, It”: “H’orsh’it”, but it’s not goin’ anywhere.) ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/17 "2009-10-10T14:44:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > “Lisa and Jim are fraternal twins; each of them loves his sibling.” “Lisa and Jim are fraternal twins; each of them loves its sibling.” That doesn’t rankle at all for me. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/18 "2009-10-10T14:49:05Z")
> [@Buckler\_of\_Swashing](#): > > How about we make it ‘her’ by default and ‘his’ if you know it’s a guy? I’m sure we could get along fine for another few centuries like that, unless a bunch of men suddenly decide they have a problem with female default that they don’t have with a male one. I know I would be _totally shocked_ to find out that was the case. :rolleyes: Speaking as a male, I like this. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/19 "2009-10-10T15:01:38Z")
From m-w: > [@](#): > > : of or relating to it or itself especially as possessor, agent, or object of an action \ \< **a child proud of its first drawings** \> \ I don’t understand the resistance to this. It isn’t at all awkward, and flows smoothly in a sentence. All one need do is let go of the idea that one is referring to a “thing”. And it does no violence to language, **BrotherCadfael**. 😉 Look: “The worker dropped a hammer and injured its toe.” Easy, huh, if you say it a few times. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/20 "2009-10-10T15:08:16Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Look: > “The worker dropped a hammer and injured its toe.” > Easy, huh, if you say it a few times. So, what part of the hammer is its toe? ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/21 "2009-10-10T15:19:55Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > So, what part of the hammer is its toe? That’s silly. :rolleyes: But: “The worker injured its toe when he dropped a hammer on it.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265.md?page=2)