# Gender neutral? I've had it. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 10, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265 "2009-10-10T02:05:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/22 "2009-10-10T15:29:00Z")
Clearly, there are no perfect answers to this dilemma, so we will need to satisfy ourselves with an imperfect one. Which one, I don’t particularly care. To me, a more interesting question is, \*why \*did the English language evolve without a gender-neutral pronoun in the first place? I would have thought it would be a very useful item from the git-go, but somehow it never came up? There has to be a back-story in there…TRM ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/23 "2009-10-10T15:39:07Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > To me, a more interesting question is, \*why \*did the English language evolve without a gender-neutral pronoun in the first place? I would have thought it would be a very useful item from the git-go, but somehow it never came up? There has to be a back-story in there…TRM That question was kind of implicit in the OP. I assume that in less enlightened times they did just as mentioned above and used the male pronoun. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/24 "2009-10-11T00:33:22Z")
You may follow NilaNguyen as well by clicking on the “follow” button on the member’s profile.You may also block NilaNguyen if you don’t want to be followed by this person. The worker dropped a hammer and injured a toe. Lisa and Jim are fraternal twins; they love each other. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/25 "2009-10-11T01:25:52Z")
> [@chique](#): > > You may follow NilaNguyen as well by clicking on the “follow” button on the member’s profile.You may also block NilaNguyen if you don’t want to be followed by this person. > > The worker dropped a hammer and injured a toe. > > Lisa and Jim are fraternal twins; they love each other. Exactly. There are ways of saying anything without needing a gender neutral, third-person pronoun. In fact, I think it could make a fun game for grammar Nazis to try and stump each other. When the King James Version of the Bible was written, even the word _its_ was uncommon. The translators got around using it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![freckafree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freckafree/32/3050_2.png) [@freckafree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freckafree)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/26 "2009-10-11T01:42:43Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > I was making a joke with “grammer”. Anyone with branes could see that. Branes all gone. Zombees ate it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/27 "2009-10-11T01:55:01Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > “Lisa and Jim are fraternal twins; each of them loves its sibling.” That doesn’t rankle at all for me. Maybe because you aren’t the one being described. If someone referred to me as “it” then I’d believe they were deliberately trying to insult me. This has been the case the few times I have heard known adult individuals referred to as “it”. Babies or fetuses are often called “it” without any ill intent because their gender is either not obvious or is as yet unknown, but it’s pretty offensive when applied to an adult. > [@mangeorge](#): > > That’s silly. :rolleyes: > But: > “The worker injured its toe when he dropped a hammer on it.” You’ve still got a gendered pronoun in there. You’d have to say “The worker injured its toe when it dropped a hammer on it”, which is awkward, repetitive, and rather confusing. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/28 "2009-10-11T02:01:02Z")
> [@freckafree](#): > > Branes all gone. Zombees ate it. > > 😉 So. I bet skule wont do no good neither then. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/29 "2009-10-11T02:07:28Z")
> [@chique](#): > > The worker dropped a hammer and injured a toe. > > Lisa and Jim are fraternal twins; they love each other. That’s the risk you tale when you stand too close to a worker whilst (heh heh) it’s using a hammer. ---
**Author:** ![freckafree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freckafree/32/3050_2.png) [@freckafree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freckafree)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/30 "2009-10-11T02:11:58Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > So. I bet skule wont do no good neither then. Not fer me. No skule. Just…BRAAAAAAANES! (srsly, **mangeorge** , my irony detector doesn’t work sometimes. There was more snark in my response than was appropriate. I chose…poorly.) ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/31 "2009-10-11T02:13:20Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Exactly. There are ways of saying anything without needing a gender neutral, third-person pronoun. In fact, I think it could make a fun game for grammar Nazis to try and stump each other. > > When the King James Version of the Bible was written, even the word _its_ was uncommon. The translators got around using it anyway. No, not exactly. Not really, That’s awkward. Try a little creative writing without using pronouns. The first _outside_ reader would likely toss a pronoun-free work of fiction before finishing the first chapter. How many times can you say “Bob” when referring to Bob, the main character? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/32 "2009-10-11T15:42:08Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Exactly. There are ways of saying anything without needing a gender neutral, third-person pronoun. In fact, I think it could make a fun game for grammar Nazis to try and stump each other. … Grammar Nazis would never try \*and \*do anything. They might well try _to_ do something though. Sorry, I couldn’t resist. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/33 "2009-10-12T13:22:05Z")
As stated above, there are ways in which the sentence can be written that are gender neutral. Consider “NilaNguyen’s status has been updated - would you like to see it?” What is funny about all of this is that computers use the most prescriptivist languages that exist, the artificial languages of coding. That there is some code monkey out there who can carefully write out all the precise instructions to create this universal module and who doesn’t care about the rules in English baffles me. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyFrank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@JerseyFrank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyFrank)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/34 "2009-10-12T14:14:00Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > What is funny about all of this is that computers use the most prescriptivist languages that exist, the artificial languages of coding. That there is some code monkey out there who can carefully write out all the precise instructions to create this universal module and who doesn’t care about the rules in English baffles me. You overestimate a programmer’s ability to influence what is presented to the end user. Someone in the process (developer, architect, quality tester, etc.) certainly brought attention to the issue where it was promptly out-voted by a team of marketers who insist that it says “their.” ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265/35 "2009-10-12T14:55:58Z")
I’ve calmed down, read all the posts, and thought it over. Using “they” to refer to one person still grates. If I’m not successful in using “it”, I’ll revert to the tried and true, though requiring more keystrokes, “he/she”. Or “she/he”, depending upon my mood. The language is english, so I can do as I please. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-ive-had-it/513265.md?page=1)