# Gender-neutral second person personal pronoun in English desperately needed. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 24, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-second-person-personal-pronoun-in-english-desperately-needed/265955 "2004-09-24T22:33:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-second-person-personal-pronoun-in-english-desperately-needed/265955/21 "2004-09-26T01:51:42Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > Unca Cecil covered this question. > You can find it in the second book of Cecil. I always carry mine with me and quote from it daily. > DO YOU? Ah! So **Ed** ’s facile explanation about selling down inventory is actually a cover-up. You’ve unwittingly unveiled the truth! After all, if Five Books was enough for Moses, well, Cecil **is** a modest man! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-second-person-personal-pronoun-in-english-desperately-needed/265955/22 "2004-09-26T04:45:39Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Well, since the subject is clearly plural in your example (Tiffany et al.), no one is going to object to using “their” since it _is_ grammatically correct. The second half of the sentence emphasizes their status as individuals. As such, from this pedant’s POV, it would read better as: “Although Tiffany, Debbie Gibson, George Michael and Madonna were all crappy artists, each had a massive following during the eighties.” The Oxford Comma is something I’ve been told to eliminate wherever I see it, though I am aware that debate continues regarding its validity. ---
**Author:** ![Already\_in\_Use](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@Already\_in\_Use](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Already_in_Use)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-second-person-personal-pronoun-in-english-desperately-needed/265955/23 "2004-09-26T05:18:36Z")
We could always eliminate gendered personal pronouns completely. The Finns seem to have done fine without them. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-second-person-personal-pronoun-in-english-desperately-needed/265955/24 "2004-09-26T08:21:56Z")
> [@QuarkChild](#): > > I think it would be nice to have a neuter pronoun. I happened to be partial to “Ni” or “Ne” (pronounced to rhyme with he/she). > > I could imagine saying, “Someone left ner backpack here when ni left” to mean “Someone left his/r backpack here when s/he left.” > > “Ner” could serve as both possessive and accusative, along the lines of “her.” Alternatively, one could use “himr” (pronounced himmer) for the accusative case and “hisr” (hizzer) for possessive: > “Someone left hisr backpack in here and I’d like to give it back to himr.” > > I think I’ve thought about this a little too much. Maybe not. Just start using it, and asee what comprehension follows! That’s how every thing new starts :). ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-second-person-personal-pronoun-in-english-desperately-needed/265955/25 "2004-09-26T08:28:39Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Get over it. Move on. Use “they” and be happy. **Knorf** has stated an option which they think is acceptable. Frankly, I think they needs a cranial readjustment to think ‘they’ is always acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-second-person-personal-pronoun-in-english-desperately-needed/265955/26 "2004-09-26T13:19:37Z")
How about referring to the gender-neutral second person personal pronoun as “Chris”. could go either way. /Has lots of guy and girl friends named Chris ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-second-person-personal-pronoun-in-english-desperately-needed/265955/27 "2004-09-26T16:57:33Z")
> [@SnakeSpirit](#): > > **Knorf** has stated an option which they think is acceptable. Frankly, I think they needs a cranial readjustment to think ‘they’ is always acceptable. Your comphrehension leaves much to be desired. Did you _read_ the links I provided? ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-second-person-personal-pronoun-in-english-desperately-needed/265955/28 "2004-09-26T17:10:14Z")
**Tiffany** had a massive following? StG ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-second-person-personal-pronoun-in-english-desperately-needed/265955/29 "2004-09-26T21:03:22Z")
Spivak pronouns are popular in certain online circles. he / she: e him / her: eir his / hers: eirs ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-second-person-personal-pronoun-in-english-desperately-needed/265955/30 "2004-09-26T21:27:34Z")
_“Although Tiffany, Debbie Gibson, George Michael, and Madonna were all crappy artists, each had his own massive following during the eighties.”_ > [@Knorf](#): > > Well, since the subject is clearly plural in your example (Tiffany et al.), no one is going to object to using “their” since it _is_ grammatically correct. Sorry, but no. “Tiffany” et al. is the subject of “were” in the first phrase. The subject of “had” in the second phrase is “each,” which is singular. Using “their” would be a good choice, but not because there’s a plural subject. There isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![bluecanary](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bluecanary/32/3614_2.png) [@bluecanary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bluecanary)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-second-person-personal-pronoun-in-english-desperately-needed/265955/31 "2004-09-26T23:30:17Z")
_Tiffany_ of the cheese classic '_I Think We’re Alone Now_. That song has a good following–I dunno about the rest. I use ‘they’ and ‘their’ for this unless it’s utterly jarring. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-second-person-personal-pronoun-in-english-desperately-needed/265955/32 "2004-09-27T06:10:25Z")
> [@](#): > > **Gary T** : > “he or she” > “they” > “he” (default gender, understood to not specify the person’s sex) > > Take your pick from those and at least you’ll be understood by nearly everyone. May I suggest two others that are also in use: “she or he” (in that order) “she” (We could officially disignate “she” as the default gender with the understanding that it will no longer specify a person’s sex. Such a nice change of pace, don’t you think? After all, it does contain the word _he_. Similarly, the word _women_ could be used to designate all people. It contains the word _men_ and yet it is more than that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-second-person-personal-pronoun-in-english-desperately-needed/265955/33 "2004-09-27T06:27:16Z")
“Thye”- and when it sounds strange or forced, then use “he” as it IS gender neutral when used in that fashion. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-second-person-personal-pronoun-in-english-desperately-needed/265955/34 "2004-09-27T06:28:34Z")
“they” :smack: ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-second-person-personal-pronoun-in-english-desperately-needed/265955/35 "2004-09-27T07:08:35Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Your comphrehension leaves much to be desired. Did you _read_ the links I provided? (Gulp!) OK, you caught me. I didn’t follow up. I’ve rectified the situation, however, read the links, and there’s still some (many) instances where using ‘they’ as a singular is difficult, unwieldy, and generally fuct. Many instances can use ‘they’ quite easily and with unilateral comprehension, but there are some instances where the personal pronoun needs singularization. E.G.: “ **Czarcasm** is a moderator on the SDMB. I have noticed that they seem to have a bias toward certain members.” Just doesn’t cut it. Maybe you (I’m sure you do) have a way to rephrase to provide ambiguous gender without violation of rules of English and providing comprehension? Please share. SnakeS ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-second-person-personal-pronoun-in-english-desperately-needed/265955/36 "2004-09-27T07:14:02Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > (We could officially designate “she” as the default gender with the understanding that it will no longer specify a person’s sex. Such a nice change of pace, don’t you think? After all, it does contain the word _he_. Similarly, the word _women_ could be used to designate all people. It contains the word _men_ and yet it is more than that. Oooohhhh. I like the way this gender-ambiguous person speaketh! Can the rest of the males here handle it??? I think not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-neutral-second-person-personal-pronoun-in-english-desperately-needed/265955.md?page=1)