# Gender Pay Gap **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255 "2019-05-20T20:50:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/41 "2019-05-21T01:30:41Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m using the terms synonymously, but I more mean the economy. Society was the word choice I was responding to so I mirrored it. Feel free to substitute the economy. > > I guess we’ll have to disagree on what money represents then. …“agreeing to disagree” in a great debate is a bit of a cop-out: especially when you’ve presented a premise that can be objectively tested. I will decline your offer to “substitute economy for society.” Lets stick with “value to society” and lets test your metric. Is pewdiepie more “valuable to society” than a high-school-teacher because he earns substantially more money? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/42 "2019-05-21T01:44:45Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …“agreeing to disagree” in a great debate is a bit of a cop-out Is hijacking a thread in Great Debates considered good manners? Your continued focus on societal value of daycare really has nothing to do with the topic at hand on gender pay. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/43 "2019-05-21T02:01:49Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Things that shouldn’t impact compensation when people are doing the same jobs: > > - tenure (the length of time at the company and your overall experience should not impact your compensation relative to someone else doing the same job. I don’t understand this one. Every year, I get a raise. If someone just started working at my company doing my job, they wouldn’t be at the same salary, since they don’t have 5 years of raises. They would be starting at the same salary that I started with. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/44 "2019-05-21T02:04:05Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Is hijacking a thread in Great Debates considered good manners? …you may be dismayed to discover that 1) I don’t have fucking good manners, and 2) I don’t consider my posts to be a hijack. > [@](#): > > Your continued focus on societal value of daycare really has nothing to do with the topic at hand on gender pay. You aren’t the thread police and you don’t own the thread. I’m not just talking about fucking childcare. This is a related tangent whether you can see it or not. Understanding how the pay gap came about is important to the discussion. The notion that “wages are representative of value to society” is absolutely related to why men tend to hire men and why men tend to pay men more than women for doing the same job. Deconstructing that premise is absolutely on topic. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/45 "2019-05-21T02:05:31Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I had a boss once tell me that when he hires, people with the 3 Ms are the best employees - Married, Mormon, with a Mortgage. I was kind of shocked he’d say that out loud. Do you live in Utah? ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/46 "2019-05-21T02:26:21Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t understand this one. Every year, I get a raise. If someone just started working at my company doing my job, they wouldn’t be at the same salary, since they don’t have 5 years of raises. They would be starting at the same salary that I started with. Many jobs don’t offer these kinds of raises. I have a union and they have to fight for cost of living wage increases. Fortunately where I work we do get seniority raises, but for a limited number of years (the exact amount varies by “rank”). I guess they want people to get promoted. To my way of thinking these increases are valid, but I can see how someone would think otherwise. I once worked at a place that gave a 25 cent per hour raise every three months, with another raise of the same amount if you met certain performance indicators. Then the government raised minimum wage again and they stopped that. (They started a hair above the previous minimum wage. Some of the newer workers were getting paid below the new minimum wage, until that law was passed.) ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/47 "2019-05-21T02:37:53Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t understand this one. Every year, I get a raise. If someone just started working at my company doing my job, they wouldn’t be at the same salary, since they don’t have 5 years of raises. They would be starting at the same salary that I started with. Why should someone starting 5 years after you only get the salary you started with 5 years ago? They are doing the same job you are doing. They should get the same pay. Do you believe that you are getting paid above market for your role? Could you go somewhere else and get a job with similar pay? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/48 "2019-05-21T02:41:21Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Why should someone starting 5 years after you only get the salary you started with 5 years ago? They are doing the same job you are doing. They should get the same pay. > > Do you believe that you are getting paid above market for your role? Could you go somewhere else and get a job with similar pay? Because I am getting raises based on my performance. A new person doesn’t have that performance to rate a salary that is comparable to mine. Yes, I could go somewhere else and get a job with similar pay. ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/49 "2019-05-21T03:23:04Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > If the teacher with more experience and more degrees can be replaced with less experience and less degrees, where is the value that the more experienced teacher is bringing? They are not. Individuals with more experience and more education should be seeking jobs with more responsibilities that can leverage their experience and education if they want to get paid more. I was just making up a situation but it may very well be the experienced teacher can handle many situations better. Maybe not the day to day stuff but when things don’t go as planned. I’ve been a dentist for 29 years and can assure you I am a much better dentist now then when I graduated although my qualification, a DDS degree is exactly the same. Experience does make a difference in many jobs and is worth more money in many but of course not every situation. ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/50 "2019-05-21T03:28:53Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I didn’t. rsat3acr did. I was just making up a situation to support my opinion that often differences tenure and education should be rewarded differently. The OP stated they shouldn’t ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/51 "2019-05-21T03:53:11Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …“agreeing to disagree” in a great debate is a bit of a cop-out: especially when you’ve presented a premise that can be objectively tested. I will decline your offer to “substitute economy for society.” Lets stick with “value to society” and lets test your metric. Is pewdiepie more “valuable to society” than a high-school-teacher because he earns substantially more money? The market says yes. So are the Kardashians. With regards to the so-called gender pay gap, is it even real? I seem to recall this being debated at least twice a year and people can’t even agree it’s a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/52 "2019-05-21T04:13:43Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …“agreeing to disagree” in a great debate is a bit of a cop-out: especially when you’ve presented a premise that can be objectively tested. I will decline your offer to “substitute economy for society.” Lets stick with “value to society” and lets test your metric. Is pewdiepie more “valuable to society” than a high-school-teacher because he earns substantially more money? If someone says something that isn’t perfectly precise (me) and they note it, in my view that aspect is resolved. I acknowledged that society != economy, however that’s how I used it. If you want to focus on that, you’re welcome to, but I don’t see the value in it. The agree to disagree part is about what money represents. Your view seems to be so different than mine in this regard that I don’t really think there is common ground. And seeing as how that topic is far away from gender pay gap, I figure I’m fine with leaving it alone. If you’re really interested in hashing out that topic, I’ll join you in a different thread. > [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Do you live in Utah? CA. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/53 "2019-05-21T04:14:18Z")
The gender pay gap is 99% confounding factors, 1% sexism; and that last 1% is debatable. ---
**Author:** ![Manlob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Manlob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manlob)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/54 "2019-05-21T04:35:41Z")
I don’t know how those studies define “equal work” in a professional environment where everyone works on a different task. Using salary grade seems like a reasonable choice, since it is a lot easier to determine than productivity. But I have worked at places that actively promote women so they advance to higher salary grades more quickly than more experienced men. Since each salary grade covers a wide range of possible salaries, the women in such a situation are likely to be paid less than the older men. If the pay gap study is using salary grade to mean “equal work” it is going to look like women are underpaid, even if this company is going out of its way to promote less qualified women over men. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/55 "2019-05-21T07:49:08Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The market says yes. So are the Kardashians. …the “market” can’t say “yes”: the market isn’t a sentient being. And what is it you want to say about the Kardashians? > [@](#): > > With regards to the so-called gender pay gap, is it even real? I seem to recall this being debated at least twice a year and people can’t even agree it’s a thing. As defined it is absolutely [real](https://www.aauw.org/article/faq-about-the-gender-pay-gap/). Do you quibble with the definition? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/56 "2019-05-21T07:51:11Z")
> [@Manlob](#): > > I don’t know how those studies define “equal work” in a professional environment where everyone works on a different task. Using salary grade seems like a reasonable choice, since it is a lot easier to determine than productivity. > > But I have worked at places that actively promote women so they advance to higher salary grades more quickly than more experienced men. Since each salary grade covers a wide range of possible salaries, the women in such a situation are likely to be paid less than the older men. If the pay gap study is using salary grade to mean “equal work” it is going to look like women are underpaid, even **if this company is going out of its way to promote less qualified women over men.** …what makes the women who have been promoted “less qualified” than the men? Experience isn’t everything. Can you quantify exactly how they were less qualified? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/57 "2019-05-21T07:59:02Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > If someone says something that isn’t perfectly precise (me) and they note it, in my view that aspect is resolved. …your view is wrong. Things aren’t resolved. You are simply avoiding answering the question. > [@](#): > > I acknowledged that society != economy, however that’s how I used it. If you want to focus on that, you’re welcome to, but I don’t see the value in it. You said something that we can objectively test to see if it is true or not. Do you not see the value in being able to know if something you believe in is actually true? > [@](#): > > The agree to disagree part is about what money represents. Your view seems to be so different than mine in this regard that I don’t really think there is common ground. And seeing as how that topic is far away from gender pay gap, I figure I’m fine with leaving it alone. If you’re really interested in hashing out that topic, I’ll join you in a different thread. We are talking about the pay gap. People are paid differently all the time that do identical work but have a perceived different value. I posted an (obviously extreme) example of this. Your determination that some work has more value to society than other work based on **how much that person gets paid** is the very same calculus that is going on in the workplace when men tend to pay men more than women. You think you are using an objective measure but you are not. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/58 "2019-05-21T10:11:46Z")
What about WHEN they work? I get paid more than some people doing the same job because I work nights and Sundays and we get paid extra for working nights and on Sundays. I also work alot of overtime for more money. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/59 "2019-05-21T10:13:56Z")
Truth: nobody is paid what they are WORTH. You are paid what you NEGOTIATED for. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255/60 "2019-05-21T10:23:34Z")
> [@rsat3acr](#): > > I was just making up a situation but it may very well be the experienced teacher can handle many situations better. Maybe not the day to day stuff but when things don’t go as planned. I’ve been a dentist for 29 years and can assure you I am a much better dentist now then when I graduated although my qualification, a DDS degree is exactly the same. Experience does make a difference in many jobs and is worth more money in many but of course not every situation. Nacho and the teacher we nicknamed Short Smurf were of an age; Smurf had much more experience (Nacho had worked in a factory for ten years before becoming a teacher). And yet, Smurf was a much worse teacher. Nacho was such a superb teacher of chemistry that about half his tutoring work was for university students amazed by the performance of his former students: people would come from 5 hours away for that tutoring. Smurf was a sexist, sizeist, xenophobic asshole: in his class, girls got lower-than-usual grades, tall students and those with lastnames he thought foreign got insulted (“oxygen not reaching up there?”; “Cuiper? Do… you… even… speak… Spanish?”-“better than you, man! I actually talk at a normal speed!”). Experience is its own rank but some people never go beyond E-1. It simply can’t be assumed that those with more experience will inevitably be better than those with less. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-pay-gap/834255.md?page=4)