# Gender, race, and other issues (split off from Doper Demographics thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [September 7, 2022, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091 "2022-09-07T00:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/181 "2022-09-08T17:53:30Z")
That’s great, glad you agree. The issue is that men cannot be excluded from women’s spaces when policies prohibit occupants from assessing someone as male and acting on this assessment. It is an inconvenient truth being swept under the rug in places like this board and elsewhere. And it is what women are talking about on boards less hostile to this topic. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/182 "2022-09-08T17:55:34Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I have said on this board already (and repeatedly) that I don’t have a concern with transwomen using women’s restrooms. > > But I do have a problem with restroom policies that make it impossible for women to eject men. For the avoidance of doubt, in your second sentence here, does the term “men” _exclude_ trans women? A plain reading of your first sentence implies that, but (sorry if this is so exhausting) with you I do feel the need to clarify that. Do you intend in future to use the unqualified term “men” to unambiguously include both cis and trans men, and the unqualified term “women” to unambiguously include both cis and trans women? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/183 "2022-09-08T17:58:03Z")
What policies are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/184 "2022-09-08T17:59:16Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > policies prohibit occupants from assessing someone as male and acting on this assessment. So even cis women aren’t safe from being ‘othered’. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/185 "2022-09-08T18:00:38Z")
I will not be engaging in any more crazy-making parsing of words about who counts as a man. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/186 "2022-09-08T18:02:16Z")
Policies that allow people to choose which spaces they want to use, regardless of how those spaces are marked. Are you asking this in good faith? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/187 "2022-09-08T18:04:15Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I will not be engaging in any more crazy-making parsing of words about who counts as a man. 1. In the past, you’ve defined “man” in a way that leads to violation of board rules. 2. You’re refusing to define the term now. 3. You’re using the term in a way that, _depending on the definition_, may violate board rules. There’s something crazy-making here, but it’s not your being asked to define your terms clearly. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/188 "2022-09-08T18:06:23Z")
And this is sort of the place to comment on board rules is it not? She clearly stated that she doesn’t like the levels of linguistic contortions necessary to conform to a fiat. Other than trying for a gotcha, I’m not sure what this interrogation is intended. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/189 "2022-09-08T18:07:30Z")
I think this sums it up: > [@Pronouns and idiot fascists](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/146): > > It’s labeled “women’s” but that means nothing because women means nothing now. Ok. > [@So-Called “Cancel Culture”, Social Media and Bullying](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/427): > > Transmen are female. Females can use female spaces. It doesn’t matter what they look like. Female spaces are reserved for people with female anatomy, with female biological needs. > > Transwomen have male anatomy. _Their appearance is irrelevant in terms of policy._ It is only relevant in terms of illustrating the folly of using self-identification as the _sole_ basis for distinguishing between men from transwomen. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/190 "2022-09-08T18:09:48Z")
That’s always been the policy, AFAICT, at every public restroom in my lifetime. Nowhere were IDs checked, or chromosomes, or genitals, etc. If someone thought someone else didn’t belong they might go to the authorities (just like the target did in the bathroom assault story you linked to, which occurred last month), as they still are able. Where are these policies written and how are they being enforced? ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/191 "2022-09-08T18:10:58Z")
Are you saying the board has a rule prohibiting people from using definitions of “men” and “women” that accord with what has been used traditionally? If this is true, I actually didn’t know this. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/192 "2022-09-08T18:11:55Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And this is sort of the place to comment on board rules is it not? She clearly stated that she doesn’t like the levels of linguistic contortions necessary to conform to a fiat. Other than trying for a gotcha, I’m not sure what this interrogation is intended. She’s asking whether a particular type of discussion is allowed, but she’s not willing to explain what the discussion would be about, and is prevaricating about what she means by a specific word _when what she means by that word is central to whether the type of discussion is allowed_. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/193 "2022-09-08T18:14:17Z")
I didn’t see it as an ask. More as a ‘this is a policy I am unhappy with because it requires me to communicate in a method I feel is dishonest and that’s why I post less here and post more elsewhere where my perceptions of reality aren’t being subjugated for a politically correct version of reality.’ That’s my reading of her writings. Maybe I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/194 "2022-09-08T18:14:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If someone thought someone else didn’t belong they might go to the authorities (just like the target did in the bathroom assault story you linked to, which occurred last month), as they still are able. And here’s why that actually is a problem, > **[Trans Man Advised to Use Women's Restroom Then Beaten Up and Arrested](https://www.newsweek.com/trans-man-attacked-using-womens-restroom-ohio-1723432)** > > Noah Ruiz, 20, says three men attacked him after he used the women's restroom at a campground in Ohio. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/195 "2022-09-08T18:14:20Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Are you saying the board has a rule prohibiting people from using definitions of “men” and “women” that accord with what has been used traditionally? This is such a dishonest sort of question. No, I’m not saying that, because those aren’t my words. That’s all just a way to avoid explaining what you mean. But it’s not really a successful avoidance, is it? It’s pretty clear that you want to use the words in “accord with what has been used traditionally,” and that by that, you mean to exclude transwomen from the definition of women and to include transmen in the definition of women. If that’s not what you meant, you’d give the definition. There’s zero sign that you’re willing to abide by your topic ban. You should be gone. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/196 "2022-09-08T18:15:09Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > this is a policy I am unhappy with because it requires me to communicate in a method I feel is dishonest If her truth is transphobia, then she should go away, just as surely as if her truth were racism. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/197 "2022-09-08T18:16:05Z")
You do realize that the linguistic shift you are comfortable making is not universally shared and isn’t necessarily rooted in fear of trans-folk? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/198 "2022-09-08T18:16:21Z")
No fooling, really? Tell me more! ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/199 "2022-09-08T18:17:05Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > the levels of linguistic contortions necessary to conform to a fiat Maybe you should take that up with the guy that wrote the rule . . . or are you suddenly not wanting every rule Ed writes to be treated as if they were written by a god? ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/200 "2022-09-08T18:18:06Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You do realize that the linguistic shift you are comfortable making is not universally shared and isn’t necessarily rooted in fear of trans-folk? You should probably learn what -phobia actually means. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091.md?page=11)