# Gender, race, and other issues (split off from Doper Demographics thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [September 7, 2022, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091 "2022-09-07T00:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/221 "2022-09-08T19:01:02Z")
I hope not! Pretty sure that would be against the rules. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/222 "2022-09-08T19:03:04Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I don’t understand what they even means It sounds like you don’t even understand the concept of what transgender means. A transgender person is someone whose gender identity does not match the sex that they were assigned at birth. Let’s take an example of someone who is born male but identifies as female. They live as a woman, dress as a woman, etc. Calling them a “man” is insulting and derogatory. You need to clarify how you are using the term “man”, because the implication from many of your posts is that you would call this person a man, which is deliberate misgendering. Their gender identity is female. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/223 "2022-09-08T19:03:41Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > This paragraph specifically applies (bolding mine): > > 1. Do not deliberately misgender another poster – **that is, refer to them by a pronoun or other sex-specific term indicating a gender other than the one they identify as**. Given the rule, and given this exchange: > [@Riemann](#): > > For the avoidance of doubt, in your second sentence here, does the term “men” _exclude_ trans women? A plain reading of your first sentence implies that, but (sorry if this is so exhausting) with you I do feel the need to clarify that. > > Do you intend in future to use the unqualified term “men” to unambiguously include both cis and trans men, and the unqualified term “women” to unambiguously include both cis and trans women? > [@YWTF](#): > > I will not be engaging in any more crazy-making parsing of words about who counts as a man. So @YWTF has made it clear that she is unwilling to refrain from misgendering trans women, even for the narrow purpose of participating in a respectful manner in an ATMB thread. Is there any reason that this discussion should be permitted to continue? @YWTF has not identified any other issue of board moderation or board culture that is relevant to the broader topic of this thread. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > In particular, if YWTF refers explicitly to cis men, and just stays out of any discussion of trans people, i see no reason why she can’t start a thread about the value of excluding cis men from female-designated spaces. She has explicitly refused to agree to use the terms “man” and “woman” (when unqualified) in a manner that is respectful to the human dignity of trans people. Are you suggesting that we should just ignore that, and somehow allow her to participate in conversations that will inevitably _involve_ trans issues provided she circumlocutes? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/224 "2022-09-08T19:04:31Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > That’s already happening. This is worthy of discussion, but is not relevant to the rules and moderation of the SDMB. Let’s keep the discussion relevant to ATMB, please. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/225 "2022-09-08T19:17:20Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > In particular, if YWTF refers explicitly to cis men, and just stays out of any discussion of trans people, i see no reason why she can’t start a thread about the value of excluding cis men from female-designated spaces. ⁢ Given her past posts, it would be clear that she was just using a fig leaf to talk about trans women in female spaces. She’s made it abundantly clear that the only thing she wants to talk about is how horrible trans people are, and how they are a threat to “women.” It was all she talked about when she first came back. You guys eventually gave her a topic ban on the subject, and she left. She only comes back to bring up the topic again in the Pit (seemingly forgetting her topic ban) and then to come here and complain about how she’s not allowed to talk about anything important. There’s no reason to be bending over to give her the benefit of the doubt at this point. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/226 "2022-09-08T19:19:31Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > She only comes back to bring up the topic again in the Pit (seemingly forgetting her topic ban) and then to come here and complain about how she’s not allowed to talk about anything important. She didn’t forget. > [@Pronouns and idiot fascists](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/135): > > It has to be more than that, and women can’t let their concerns about male violence be heard without being silenced (which I’m betting the mods will once again do to me). ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/227 "2022-09-08T19:20:24Z")
In which case, this discussion should be about her getting a Warning and/or suspension, not trying to find a way she can participate. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/228 "2022-09-08T19:22:01Z")
@YWTF, this is going around and around, mostly because you refuse to clarify exactly what it is you are saying. Your topic ban was lifted for this thread specifically for the purpose of allowing you to explain exactly what it is you feel that you cannot post here. Instead of answering the question, you keep sayin things like men shouldn’t be allowed to barge into a women’s restroom, while refusing to clarify what you mean by the word “men”. This gives me the impression that your only objection is to Ed’s guidelines on transgender issues. If this is not the case, please speak up now, and clarify exactly what it is that you object to about the SDMB. If there is an issue here then we want it out in the open so that we can do something about it. If you object to the transgender guidelines, well then you’re just out of luck. We aren’t changing those. This entire thread was spawned by the discussion of why this place is so heavily skewed towards old white males. The goal here is to make the SDMB more inclusive, not less. We want everyone to feel welcome. If you say one more thing about “men” while refusing to define how you are using the term, you will be asked to leave this thread permanently. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/229 "2022-09-08T19:26:45Z")
What I don’t understand is the leap between defining a term a certain way and deliberately misgendering an individual. Those seem like two vastly different things. If someone demands to know the population of people I’m talking about when I refer to men and I say I’m referring to the group of adult people that have M on their birth certificates, I’m not deliberately misgendering anyone with this definition. But I still get the sense this definition will get me accused of transphobia. There seems no way to discuss the issues that I’m interested in unless I work from definitions that I don’t believe in. No other topic is policied in this heavy-handed manner, and the disparate impact this is having on women’s voices is huge. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/230 "2022-09-08T19:27:49Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > She didn’t forget. Well, perhaps she “forgot” in the same way that she’s talking about “women”. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/231 "2022-09-08T19:28:07Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > No other topic is policied in this heavy-handed manner, and the disparate impact this is having on women’s voices is huge. It’s really not, but I guess that depends on how you’re defining women. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/232 "2022-09-08T19:29:11Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > What I don’t understand is the leap between defining a term a certain way and deliberately misgendering an individual. Those seem like two vastly different things. I guess they are “vastly different” in the sense that it’s the difference between misgendering one person and misgendering a vast number of people. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/233 "2022-09-08T19:32:48Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > No other topic is policied in this heavy-handed manner, and the disparate impact this is having on women’s voices is huge. Really? Tell that to our race realists and hear about the disparate impact not being allowed to say Blacks are not fully human is having on racist’s voices . . . which thankfully is huge. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/234 "2022-09-08T19:34:42Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > the disparate impact this is having on women’s voices is huge. The only way this would be true is if women were hugely disproportionately transphobic when compared to men. This is yet another claim you’re making that’s [objectively false](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12147-016-9181-6). To the contrary, this forbidding of transphobic language has its greatest disparate impact on the voices of cisgender men, the group likeliest to demonstrate transphobia in online comments. (If this fact is difficult to remember, here’s a handy mnemonic: **Cisgender Men Misgender Women**.) “Cisgender Misters Misgender Misses” is a lot more fun to say, but “misses” is too problematic, so we’ll go with the first one. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/235 "2022-09-08T19:43:50Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Tell that to our race realists and hear about the disparate impact not being allowed to say Blacks are not fully human is having on racist’s voices . . . which thankfully is huge. I mean, _maybe_ we could increase the board’s diversity by welcoming Black transphobes and balancing it off by recruiting a few trans racists? And thank goodness for self-hating Jews! ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/236 "2022-09-08T19:54:33Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I say I’m referring to the group of adult people that have M on their birth certificates, I’m not deliberately misgendering anyone with this definition. Except, that would _include_ trans women (and thus misgender them) if they have not been able to amend their birth certificate. In which case as @engineer_comp_geek put it you are out of luck. By the definition of this Board, trans women who were AMAB are _not_ “men”. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/237 "2022-09-08T19:54:48Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > @YWTF, this is going around and around, mostly because you refuse to clarify exactly what it is you are saying. Your topic ban was lifted for this thread specifically for the purpose of allowing you to explain exactly what it is you feel that you cannot post here. Instead of answering the question, you keep sayin things like men shouldn’t be allowed to barge into a women’s restroom, while refusing to clarify what you mean by the word “men”. When I say men I mean the vast majority of adult people classified as male. They are biologically analogous to roosters, stallions, lions, and bulls. They are the group that has historically held almost all the power. It poses a problem for women when men, _as a group_, are allowed unfettered entry into spaces where they are vulnerable. That is my position. Do you think this should be a controversial position in the year 2022? ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/238 "2022-09-08T19:55:33Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > It poses a problem for women when men, _as a group_, are allowed unfettered entry into spaces where they are vulnerable. That is my position. You keep saying that, and it keeps not being true. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/239 "2022-09-08T19:56:41Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Do you think this should be a controversial position in the year 2022? Yes, transphobia and misgendering is a controversial position in the year 2022. Because despite all your obfuscation and circumlocution and evasion, it’s abundantly clear that’s what you’re talking about. And I think the mods should have ended this nonsense 50 posts ago. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/240 "2022-09-08T19:59:07Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > It poses a problem for women when men, _as a group_, are allowed unfettered entry into spaces where they are vulnerable. It’s not controversial. So far no evidence has been presented that men “as a group” are allowed unfettered access into women’s spaces. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091.md?page=13)