# Gender, race, and other issues (split off from Doper Demographics thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [September 7, 2022, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091 "2022-09-07T00:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/101 "2022-09-08T00:25:43Z")
What topics, that you claim are restricted here, would you like to talk about? ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/102 "2022-09-08T01:21:43Z")
Hey you guys, just in case it’s not screamingly obvious by now, I’m not taking the bait. I’m not going to mention any specific topics that will open me up to dogpiling. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/103 "2022-09-08T01:29:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What is a new secular religion, at least on this board? Please be specific. I mean, personally, I can see how core principles of equity and rationality are acting as a baseline for discourse in ways that some could characterize as “secular religion”. Discourse that tends to get immediately rejected for violating those principles includes - Claims that members of a particular race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, religious denomination, ethnicity, nationality, economic underclass, etc. are innately inferior or mentally ill; - Claims that discrimination and bigotry against historically marginalized groups no longer exists, or that it doesn’t count unless it’s conscious and deliberate; - Sexualizing jokes in a non-sexual discussion of issues involving women, or just generally jokes introducing bigoted stereotypes in discussions involving historically marginalized groups; - Jokes suggesting approval of, or callous indifference to, the sexualization or sexual abuse of children; - Rejection of solidly established scientific/factual consensus in favor of pseudoscientific and pseudofactual beliefs about, e.g., the flatness of the earth or the faking of the moon landings or the dangers of vaccines; and a whole host of similar claims. Yeah, it’s pretty much true that the SDMB as a body doesn’t want to hear any of that shit. Personally, I’m fine with having one place on the internet where core principles of equity and rationality are treated as a baseline for discussion. I wouldn’t want the First Amendment to the Constitution rewritten to prohibit all discourse that violates those principles, but I have no problem with an individual internet forum or other private institution having more restrictions on speech than the Constitution does. I’ve been here on the Dope for over twenty years and I can remember when a lot more threads were dominated by crypto-bigots (and sometimes not so crypto) claiming they just wanted a serious discussion of their racist or sexist or homophobic or whatever views. I don’t really think they added much value to the board, and I think the fun that a lot of posters got from debating them was outweighed by the alienation felt by other posters who were among the targets of their bigotry. If anybody wants to describe those principles as a “secular religion” (whatever that even means), okay, you do you. There are lots of places you can go on the internet (or in real life) where you don’t have to conform to those principles if you don’t want to. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/104 "2022-09-08T01:42:07Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Hey you guys, just in case it’s not screamingly obvious by now, I’m not taking the bait. Can an elephant in the room constitute “bait”? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/105 "2022-09-08T01:47:44Z")
So you reserve the right to make vague accusations without having to clarify them? If you can’t state your problem clearly and concisely, I’m just going to have to assume that it isn’t important enough to talk about. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/106 "2022-09-08T01:52:39Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeah, it’s pretty much true that the SDMB as a body doesn’t want to hear any of that shit. But if you don’t allow all that stuff here on the SDMB where, oh where, will people have access to it? 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/107 "2022-09-08T01:53:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Let’s get specific. What isn’t allowed that should be, specifically? What viewpoints are outlawed, specifically? …you know that YWTF is topic banned and is unable to answer this question. The guidelines for transgender issues is here: > [@Reorganized SDMB rules](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reorganized-sdmb-rules/968857): > > SDMB rules have been reorganized and are restated below. This version incorporates all recent revisions and adds a new rule about troublesome posters, which is highlighted. Most of these rules are of long standing and in our opinion are reasonably clear. However, if it becomes apparent some misunderstandings remain, we may consider further revisions. TERMS OF SERVICE AND PRIVACY POLICY The agreement below spells out the rules by which SDMB users are expected to abide. We have one guiding prin… > [@Reorganized SDMB rules](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reorganized-sdmb-rules/968857/1): > > **Guidelines for discussion of transgender issues.** Discussions of transgender issues are often fraught and opinions tend to be polarized. Nonetheless, the SDMB believes frank conversation reflecting a wide diversity of views is the surest way to establish common ground. To facilitate such discussion, please observe the following guidelines, which apply to all forums except the Pit, where guidelines 2 through 6 apply. (The first two guidelines apply to all discussion regardless of subject.) > > - You are welcome to express your views forcefully but please do so in a civil manner. If you continually use inflammatory language, treat others with contempt, or otherwise behave in a manner we consider uncivil and we tell you to stop, please do so or face revocation of your posting privileges. > - We do not mod posts based on inaccuracy, illogic, lack of cites, etc. We leave it to other posters to point out such defects. If a poster demonstrates a pattern of deliberate misrepresentation, lying or other uncivil behavior, we may tell them to knock it off and expect them to do so. We do not warn posters merely for expressing views or starting threads on topics others find disagreeable. > - Please do not state or imply that transgender people are mentally ill. We realize the question remains controversial. However, we’re not going to settle the matter here, and raising it tends to poison other discussion of transgender issues. Please keep your opinions on the subject to yourself. > - Do not deliberately misgender another poster – that is, refer to them by a pronoun or other sex-specific term indicating a gender other than the one they identify as. This applies only in cases where a poster’s gender identity is reasonably clear. Likewise, do not deliberately misgender off-board figures. > - The use of the term cisgender or the prefix cis- to refer to individuals whose gender identity matches their biological sex is not required but can be helpful in avoiding ambiguity when discussing transgender issues. That said, we do not have a code of acceptable gender-related expressions and do not wish to referee terminology. Please be considerate of the feelings of others and avoid needless provocation when using gender-related terms. If you feel others are using gender-relating terms or expressions improperly and you wish to correct them, please do so in a civil manner. > - Above all, please remember it’s a wide world and you and those who agree with you aren’t the only ones in it. I think that these are all reasonable guidelines, and support this 100%. If these guidelines means that some people here feel unwelcome here, that is unfortunate, but unavoidable. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/108 "2022-09-08T01:55:25Z")
Are there any other issues, other than the one you are topic-banned on, that you think should be discussed on the SDMB? ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/109 "2022-09-08T01:59:22Z")
I have made my point clear about the tenor on this board. You and others are also making it clear what this tenor actually looks like. It’s ugly and boring. Only a pathetic handful of nobodies gets any pleasure reading it. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/110 "2022-09-08T02:05:55Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …you know that YWTF is topic banned and is unable to answer this question. Surely there must be a limited exemption that the bannee is allowed to discuss the ban itself in ATMB? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/111 "2022-09-08T02:06:34Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Only a pathetic handful of nobodies gets any pleasure reading it. Rules really aren’t your strong point, are they? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/112 "2022-09-08T02:06:46Z")
I would like to read about specific problems and their possible solutions. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/113 "2022-09-08T02:09:06Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I have made my point clear about the tenor on this board. I wouldn’t be shocked to discover that you don’t like the _castrati_ on this board either. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/114 "2022-09-08T02:15:37Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Surely there must be a limited exemption that the bannee is allowed to discuss the ban itself in ATMB? …that would be a question better directed to the moderators here, not me. I’m sure that would probably be allowed in its own dedicated thread, but I doubt it would be in a generic thread like this. But that obviously isn’t my call. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/115 "2022-09-08T02:44:32Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I have made my point clear about the tenor on this board. > > You and others are also making it clear what this tenor actually looks like. It’s ugly and boring. Honestly, I tend to think it was considerably more “ugly and boring” back when we had [actual debate threads on “issues” like](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/regarding-the-blacks-marching-for-reparations-tomorrow/124303) > [@](#): > > Regarding the blacks marching for reparations tomorrow… > How many of them are actually former slaves? Or just lazy freeloaders looking for a quick buck? [Or wanting to debate the so-called “Global Warming Fraud”.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-global-warming-fraud/738010) [Or arguing with zero moderation pushback that](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chick-fil-a-appreciation-day/630096/345) > [@](#): > > […] aside from being a mental illness homosexuality is also aberrant behavior that **most humans seem to naturally find visually disgusting**. [Or asking](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-rape-victims-bear-any-responsibility-for-stupid-decisions-that-endanger-them/126715) > [@](#): > > Do rape victims bear any responsibility for stupid decisions that endanger them? [Or opinion threads expecting serious discussion of questions like](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-black-women-generally-less-attractive-then-white-women/483163) > [@](#): > > Are black women generally less attractive then [sic] white women? Part of what has “hardened the baseline”, so to speak, is the fact that the pernicious bigotry and willful ignorance underlying a lot of those attitudes has now become more generally apparent. At least in this one small enclave of the internet, over the decades, to some extent, some ignorance actually got fought. I’m not going to bemoan that for reducing “diversity of opinion” around here. Yes, it’s true that being more welcoming to a lot more varieties of stupidity and bigotry encouraged more diversity of opinion in that regard. Like I said, I don’t think that was a net win for the board. > [@YWTF](#): > > Only a pathetic handful of nobodies gets any pleasure reading it. Hmm, then that implies that there must be thousands of masochists reading the SDMB without getting any pleasure from it. Someone should tell them that if they’re really not enjoying it they’re allowed to leave, honest! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/116 "2022-09-08T03:36:08Z")
Is it the claim that conservatives have been forced off the board even though they haven’t broken the agreed-upon rules, or is it the claim that the rules shouldn’t apply to them because of…reasons? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/117 "2022-09-08T05:04:50Z")
Let’s say you had inherited a seedy dive bar always full of people getting into fistfights, vomiting in the main room, and casually vandalizing things. You hire some security guys, kick out the troublemakers, and it starts becoming more sane and calm, clean, and welcoming. You spruce up the decor and enjoy owning a respectable establishment. If someone accuses you of being intolerant and unwelcoming, and they miss how it used to be, would you be ashamed? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/118 "2022-09-08T05:10:09Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > If someone accuses you of being intolerant and unwelcoming, and they miss how it used to be, would you be ashamed? In a town with an almost infinite amount of seedy bars, many of which are much, _much_ seedier than mine used to be? Not even a little bit. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/119 "2022-09-08T11:41:45Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > My point is that the current vibe of the SDBM is a microcosm of a larger social phenomenon occurring in left-leaning communities. Resistance to intellectually engaging ideas that challenge commonly held viewpoints is that phenomenon. > > I couldn’t care less what is happening in “right-wing” boards. It’s not a contest. I think everything your said is also true of right wing communities, and is at least as true of “the real world” as of message boards and their ilk. I think this represents a polarization of our society. > [@YWTF](#): > > Hey you guys, just in case it’s not screamingly obvious by now, I’m not taking the bait. I’m not going to mention any specific topics that will open me up to dogpiling. Well, I’m sure I’m not the only one who wonders if you feel silenced on many issues, or just on trans issues. But i understand not wanting to start a pig pile. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Riemann](#): > > > > Surely there must be a limited exemption that the bannee is allowed to discuss the ban itself in ATMB? > > …that would be a question better directed to the moderators here, not me. I’m sure that would probably be allowed in its own dedicated thread, but I doubt it would be in a generic thread like this. But that obviously isn’t my call. Speaking as a mod, I’m not sure we’ve discussed it. But i know that ATMB threads about that sort of topic often devolve into relitigating the subject of the ban, and can tempt posters to cross the line. So i think YWTF is being quite reasonable in not addressing her topic ban directly. If there are unrelated topics where she feels discussion is being squealched, however, (like Biden’s unpopularity in any particular demographic) it could be constructive to bring those up. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/120 "2022-09-08T12:13:13Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > If there are unrelated topics where she feels discussion is being squealched, however, (like Biden’s unpopularity in any particular demographic) it could be constructive to bring those up. I’m really curious expressing exactly what opinions on Biden’s popularity would result in, > [@YWTF](#): > > Sure, I could start such a thread and share my thoughts on why the numbers are what they are. I will then get banned for doing so, since I’m not the type of person who likes to limit her thoughts to those that have been pre-approved by the SDMB mods. 'Cause I’m not seeing what rule that could conceivably violate. Other than the obvious thing which I, at least, ain’t really comfortable assuming is what’s being alluded to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091.md?page=7)