# Gender, race, and other issues (split off from Doper Demographics thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [September 7, 2022, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091 "2022-09-07T00:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/141 "2022-09-08T15:58:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If it’s not, how is this not an end-run around your topic ban? I’m really hoping that for this thread the topic ban is not being enforced. IMHO it would be totally unfair to enforce it in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/142 "2022-09-08T16:05:09Z")
It’d make sense to me to relax the topic ban in this thread–but to strictly enforce the more general rule against misgendering folks, and ban her if she persists in this behavior. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/143 "2022-09-08T16:05:28Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > My post was in response to someone questioning the boundaries of hate speech. “Hate speech” has become an umbrella term for any stated opinions that could reasonable or unreasonably be interpreted as bigoted toward another group. > > Women insisting on spaces separate from men is considered hate speech on those grounds. All the responses seem consistent with that conclusion. _shrug_ I agree with you that women insisting on spaces separate from men is not hate speech. I don’t think the board considers it hate speech, though. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/144 "2022-09-08T16:18:03Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > No, not a bad example. Its a very clear example of how women cannot talk about men and male violence without immediately being put on the defensive. And that’s the best case scenario. Worst case scenario is that they will immediately be demonized. It’s a bad example because you got hit with a topic ban on an adjacent topic before the board formulated its recent rules around discussing trans issues because of behavior specific to you. I listed half a dozen women’s issues that are not adjacent to trans rights. If you really really need to talk about women’s-only spaces, i suggest you restrict yourself to talking about restricting the access of cis men, and being consistent in referring to them as such, not using potentially confusing language like “MEN”, which might lead posters to think you might be including trans women in your comments. That would be a way you could discuss the issue without violating your topic ban. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/145 "2022-09-08T16:22:11Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I’m really hoping that for this thread the topic ban is not being enforced. I will not be enforcing the topic ban in this thread (and only in this thread). ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/146 "2022-09-08T16:33:21Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Can you give an example of such a thread in which trans people’s rights aren’t the issue? Threads like this don’t exist on this board anymore, so no. They used to exist when there were more female posters and there was less polarization around gender. It was not uncommon for us to talk about rape and how society conditions women to see rape prevention as their problem to solve. Victim blaming and the whole nine. We used to talk about the importance of respecting women’s boundaries and not putting the onus on her to defend those boundaries. It was not uncommon for us to talk about misogyny and it’s influence in the media. We used to talk about sexual objectification and how this warps how girls see themselves and how boys treat the opposite sex. We used to talk about how sex stereotypes are harmful in many ways, and how many of us had to overcome thinking ourselves in terms of those stereotypes. We used to talk about incels and the horrible things they believe about women, and the danger they pose to society because of their growing online presence. There had been a time when people were actually talking about this as if it was as important social problem—one with serious implications to men’s well-being as well as women’s. But I see much less attention given to this topic now even though incel-like misogyny has become normalized in places like Reddit and elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/147 "2022-09-08T16:36:59Z")
AFAICT we still talk about all those things. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/148 "2022-09-08T16:38:58Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Threads like this don’t exist on this board anymore, so no. They used to exist when there were more female posters and there was less polarization around gender. When there were more females on the board I don’t recall much support from them for your point of view concerning transwomen’s rights, but I could be wrong. Got any links? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/149 "2022-09-08T16:40:50Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > It was not uncommon for us to talk about misogyny and it’s influence in the media. We used to talk about sexual objectification and how this warps how girls see themselves and how boys treat the opposite sex. We used to talk about how sex stereotypes are harmful in many ways, and how many of us had to overcome thinking ourselves in terms of those stereotypes. We can talk about any/all of those subjects any time you start a thread about them, y’know. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/150 "2022-09-08T16:42:28Z")
In fact, we just had a long thread about incels. I’m not a mod, but I don’t see how any of those topics would be off limits, even for someone with topic ban about transgender people. ETA: @YWTF, if you’re worried that bringing up a specific topic would be problematic for you as a poster, just send a PM to the mods. They are very helpful and responsive, and would definitely give you guidance. I’ve done that for controversial topics, and I don’t even have a topic ban. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/151 "2022-09-08T16:42:36Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Threads like this don’t exist on this board anymore, so no. They used to exist when there were more female posters and there was less polarization around gender. You know how to start a thread. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/152 "2022-09-08T16:44:16Z")
In the last two years, I have never seen a woman get away with saying she wants spaces free from men without being accused of transphobia. No where online have I seen that happen. If you’ve seen this happening, I would be amazed. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/153 "2022-09-08T16:45:25Z")
I don’t understand your question. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/154 "2022-09-08T16:46:37Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > In the last two years, I have never seen a woman get away with saying she wants spaces free from men without being accused of transphobia. No where online have I seen that happen. If you’ve seen this happening, I would be amazed. That’s solely because your definition of men is harmful, hateful, and inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/155 "2022-09-08T16:51:03Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > In the last two years, I have never seen a woman get away with saying she wants spaces free from men without being accused of transphobia. No where online have I seen that happen. If you’ve seen this happening, I would be amazed. Let’s try it right here. I think it’s entirely reasonable, and not at all transphobic, for women to want some spaces to be free of men. I think most (and probably all) posters agree with me. I invite others to chime in on whether they find this objectionable in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/156 "2022-09-08T16:55:31Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I don’t understand your question. If you want to see topics discussed here, start threads about them. You say that we don’t talk about them, but “you” are part of “we”. Threads do not start themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/157 "2022-09-08T17:01:29Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > In the last two years, I have never seen a woman get away with saying she wants spaces free from men without being accused of transphobia. If the woman is misgendering transwomen as “MEN”, then accusations of transphobia might come up, yes. Have you got any examples _not_ involving deliberate misgendering where women were accused of being transphobic? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/158 "2022-09-08T17:11:51Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > I will not be enforcing the topic ban in this thread (and only in this thread). Since I was the one who raised this question - although I think it should be permissible for a bannee to talk about a ban in the narrow sense of discussing whether the moderation action was appropriate, I hope that this will not be interpreted as opening up the underlying issue for debate here. In particular, it should not be a free pass for @YWTF to misgender trans women. If she wants to discuss the ban, it should be conditional upon doing so in terms that respect human dignity - adhering to the board’s understanding of what that means, not hers. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/159 "2022-09-08T17:12:55Z")
So here’s a challenge for you. See @GreysonCarlisle’s last post to me? His teeth-baring aggressiveness at my use of “men” is a symptom of the problem I’m talking about it. Do you not see how insane it is that I’m having to repeatedly defend myself from people parsing all kinds of ideological meanings from words as basic as MAN? It’s exhausting. I’m actually having to defend why I believe a group called men exists now. What person in their right mind would want to post to a community where this happens? I think you want to convince me there isn’t a problem with this board, but you will never be able to pull off that feat if the antagonism popping up in this very thread doesn’t seem to even merit a eye flutter from you. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/160 "2022-09-08T17:14:55Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > So here’s a challenge for you. > > See @GreysonCarlisle’s last post to me? His teeth-baring aggressiveness at my use of “men” is a symptom of the problem I’m talking about it. It’s not a problem. It’s the right thing to do. > [@](#): > > Do you not see how insane it is that I’m having to repeatedly defend myself from people parsing all kinds of ideological meanings from words as basic as MAN? It’s exhausting. Then maybe stop using man and especially MAN to refer to transwomen. It is harmful. It is hateful. It is inaccurate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091.md?page=9)