# Gender, race, and other issues (split off from Doper Demographics thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [September 7, 2022, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091 "2022-09-07T00:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/161 "2022-09-08T17:18:23Z")
Any disagreement is not about the existence of “men”, but the definition. There have been lots and lots of tough discussions about this definitions and others, on this board and elsewhere, because the definitions and usages of these words are changing. The simple fact of changing definitions and usages appears to be extremely difficult for many to accept. And it certainly inspires strong emotions in many. It’s not insane to have these discussions, and for there to be disagreements, and even for some people to get really angry about it, IMO. Society is changing, and language is changing, and these kinds of changes don’t happen without lots of resistance and anger. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/162 "2022-09-08T17:19:54Z")
If you want the right to misgender people without opposition, forget it. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/163 "2022-09-08T17:20:03Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Do you not see how insane it is that I’m having to repeatedly defend myself from people parsing all kinds of ideological meanings from words as basic as MAN? It’s exhausting. > > I’m actually having to defend why I believe a group called men exists now. What person in their right mind would want to post to a community where this happens? Why are you obfuscating whether your use of the term MAN is intended to include trans women? Because that’s the _entire_ issue. If it does, and if it’s so _exhausting_ for you to use the unqualified words man and woman in a straightforward manner that is respectful to the human dignity of trans people, feel free to find a community that is less exhausting for you, and don’t let the door hit you on the way out. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/164 "2022-09-08T17:22:38Z")
Pssst, you are only proving the points that I’m making. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/165 "2022-09-08T17:23:26Z")
Pssst, there’s only one person in the wrong here, and it ain’t me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/166 "2022-09-08T17:24:40Z")
Let’s try it again, in nice bold letters: **I think it’s entirely reasonable, and not at all transphobic, for women to want some spaces to be free of men. I think most (and probably all) posters agree with me. I invite others to chime in on whether they find this objectionable in any way.** ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/167 "2022-09-08T17:24:54Z")
The underlying issue I got from monstro’s and YWTF’s posts is that there is not a visual difference between men and women. Walking into a restroom or locker room, a person should assume that everyone identifies as that gender regardless of what they look like. The person in the above news article with a full beard and masculine features may identify as a woman and prefer to use women’s spaces. Or they may be a man who gets off being in women’s spaces. Either may be true. Certainly many trans women take on stereotypical female features, but that is not necessarily the case. A trans woman may have fully masculine features and be sincere in their female identity. It’s going to be difficult to discuss the need for women-only spaces without also discussing how there is not always a visual difference between men and women since anyone can identify as any gender regardless of any biological or physical appearance. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/168 "2022-09-08T17:27:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Let’s try it again, in nice bold letters: > > **I think it’s entirely reasonable, and not at all transphobic, for women to want some spaces to be free of men. I think most (and probably all) posters agree with me. I invite others to chime in on whether they find this objectionable in any way.** As long as by “men” you do not mean transgender women, I have no objection. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/169 "2022-09-08T17:28:04Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > The person in the above news article with a full beard and masculine features may identify as a woman and prefer to use women’s spaces. Or they may be a man who gets off being in women’s spaces. Either may be true. Is either equally as likely? ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/170 "2022-09-08T17:30:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Let’s try it again, in nice bold letters: > > **I think it’s entirely reasonable, and not at all transphobic, for women to want some spaces to be free of men. I think most (and probably all) posters agree with me. I invite others to chime in on whether they find this objectionable in any way.** Seems completely reasonable to me and I would also think most women would want that. Guess that disproves **YWTF** yet again. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/171 "2022-09-08T17:36:45Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Seems completely reasonable to me and I would also think most women would want that. Guess that disproves **YWTF** yet again. As long as **YWTF** continues to misgender transwomen as “MEN”, she can claim that the statement is in accordance with her own beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/172 "2022-09-08T17:38:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Let’s try it again, in nice bold letters: > > **I think it’s entirely reasonable, and not at all transphobic, for women to want some spaces to be free of men. I think most (and probably all) posters agree with me. I invite others to chime in on whether they find this objectionable in any way.** I’m struggling to comprehend why you are bending over backwards to give the benefit of the doubt when we know from experience (absent explicit and necessary clarification to the contrary) what @YWTF means by the word “men”. And it isn’t what _you_ mean. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/173 "2022-09-08T17:39:37Z")
Because I think she’s incorrect in what she’s saying about the board. I’m trying to demonstrate that she’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/174 "2022-09-08T17:41:02Z")
As long as you are using her terms by not specifying what you mean by “men”, you are playing into her hands. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/175 "2022-09-08T17:41:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Because I think she’s incorrect in what she’s saying about the board. I’m trying to demonstrate that she’s wrong. But using her definition of the word, she’s _not_ wrong about the board - in the sense that she will not be permitted to misgender trans women. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/176 "2022-09-08T17:42:01Z")
I think I can clear this up. **YWTF** , since women includes cis-women and trans-women, I’m sure you’d agree with the following modification of **iiandyiiii** ’s statement: > I think it’s entirely reasonable, and not at all transphobic, for trans- and cis-women (i.e., WOMEN) to want some spaces to be free of trans- and cis-men (i.e., MEN). So, @YWTF, I’m sure you can agree with the above, right? If so, I don’t see how you’ll have a problem here. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/177 "2022-09-08T17:42:05Z")
I have said on this board already (and repeatedly) that I don’t have a concern with transwomen using women’s restrooms. But I do have a problem with restroom policies that make it impossible for women to eject men. I don’t want unisex spaces replacing single-sex ones. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/178 "2022-09-08T17:42:42Z")
I thought she specified that, in this particular case, she was talking about cis-men (like in the bathroom assault she linked to). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/179 "2022-09-08T17:44:37Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I have said on this board already (and repeatedly) that I don’t have a concern with transwomen using women’s restrooms. > > But I do have a problem with restroom policies that make it impossible for women to eject men. I don’t want unisex spaces replacing single-sex ones. If that’s the case, I can’t figure out why you think you’d be demonized for taking this position. The only way you’d be “demonized,” (or, “criticized”), I think, is if people believe you’re excluding transwomen, based on their understanding of your history on the board. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2022, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091/180 "2022-09-08T17:46:28Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I have said on this board already (and repeatedly) that I don’t have a concern with transwomen using women’s restrooms. > > But I do have a problem with restroom policies that make it impossible for women to eject men. I don’t want unisex spaces replacing single-sex ones. I don’t think any of this is transphobic. This appears to me to be entirely reasonable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-race-and-other-issues-split-off-from-doper-demographics-thread/971091.md?page=10)