# Gender Segregation and the Olympics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719 "2018-02-12T20:55:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/21 "2018-02-12T23:28:50Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > As already stated, it would not make sense for women to compete with men on the same field in most events. However, I think a better question is why there exists a handicap for women competing against other women - on a different field altogether. For example, the women start lower down on the bobsled run and the downhill ski events. In the summer Rio games the women’s road bike race covered a different (and shorter) course, and the women’s marathon, while the same distance, covered a different (and flatter) route than the men’s. In my hometown marathon the women run the same course at the same time as the men, but there are two finish lines, and I think there are some women-only running events, but they run the same course as the men. > > I am sure there are other examples of women’s events taking an easier course than the men’s. What gives? Uh, same reason? The number of men who are physically capable of completing a rugged, hilly marathon course in any reasonable length of time greatly exceeds the number of women who can do so. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/22 "2018-02-12T23:41:13Z")
But the time comparison for men vs women don’t make any difference. If the top men complete the course in 2:10 and the top women complete the exact same course in 2:24, it doesn’t matter that the women take longer since the men are judged against other men and the women are judged against other women. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/23 "2018-02-12T23:47:40Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, darts and pool, certainly. I’m not sure that these are pursued and practiced at gender-comparable numbers, though. > > _Is_ there a sport that is actively played through child- and adulthood in equal numbers by both genders (or more so by girls) and which is largely strength-indifferent? Gymnastics? Figure-skating? Diving? For figure-skating, if the merits were completely artistic and not technical, i.e. no extra points for feats like a triple-axel, which favours male competitors… If you start judging solely on artistic merit, it stops being a sport, imho. There’s really no need to start assuming a sexist bias in this area. There might be but t sure seems at face value that men are just better at sports in general. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2018, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/24 "2018-02-12T23:53:08Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It’s on the tv right now - it looks like there’s only 2 people per team. So I am guessing one of each is the rule. Regular curling is teams of 4 and I woukd imagine they’d be two of each in that case. At the Olympics there’s men’s (4 men), women’s (4 women), and mixed doubles (1 man and 1 woman, and significant changes in rules and strategy). The tournament was scheduled so that mixed doubles would end before the single-gender events begin, so that players could compete in both. Both the U.S. players will be, but some countries didn’t allow it in their selection process. At the club level there are also mixed (2 men and 2 women alternative shot order), and open (4 people). > [@snowthx](#): > > In my hometown marathon the women run the same course at the same time as the men, but there are two finish lines, and I think there are some women-only running events, but they run the same course as the men. In Boston, the men and women run the same course, but don’t start at the same time. At least, among the competitive elite athletes they do. I think the start order is women’s wheelchair, men’s wheelchair, elite women, elite men, and then everyone else. I always figured they used different finish lines for the men and women because the clock is different, they can get good TV pictures of the finishers, etc. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > One that comes to mind: the assorted tennis championships where men are settling the issue in _best-of-five-sets_ fashion while the women are going _best-of-three_. I’ve heard it said that this actually favors women. The prize money is the same, but since the women play less it works out that they’re making more money per hour, or per game than the men. I think women are also more likely to participate in singles and doubles because the singles is less taxing. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/25 "2018-02-13T00:34:20Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > But the time comparison for men vs women don’t make any difference. If the top men complete the course in 2:10 and the top women complete the exact same course in 2:24, it doesn’t matter that the women take longer since the men are judged against other men and the women are judged against other women. Running a marathon is a grueling, painful experience. Make the course too difficult for women and the majority of those women might simply decide to drop out, rather than to run it in 2:24. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/26 "2018-02-13T00:46:27Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Running a marathon is a grueling, painful experience. Make the course too difficult for women and the majority of those women might simply decide to drop out, rather than to run it in 2:24. It doesn’t get tougher than the [Western States100](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_States_Endurance_Run)and women finish that. . ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/27 "2018-02-13T01:10:01Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > It doesn’t get tougher than the [Western States100](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_States_Endurance_Run)and women finish that. > . [The Self-Transcendence 3100 Mile Race](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Transcendence_3100_Mile_Race). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/28 "2018-02-13T01:25:12Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > It doesn’t get tougher than the [Western States100](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_States_Endurance_Run)and women finish that. > . [Utah’s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasatch_Front_100_Mile_Endurance_Run) sounds a bit worse (but women finish that too - although the record is apparently almost 4 hours slower than the men’s). I’ll give a double fuck-that to the whole idea of ultramarathoning though: > [@](#): > > Wasatch gains cumulatively 28,700 feet in elevation as it traverses the Wasatch Front, commanding vistas of basin and range country, the Great Salt Lake, steep canyons, broad plateaus, and craggy peaks. The course begins east of Kaysville and follows the top of the Wasatch Range before ending in Soldier Hollow. Altitude ranges from 4,700 to 10,460 feet, and temperatures range from 80s in the shade during the day to 20s on the high ridges at night. September weather in Utah can vary widely. Some years heat is a major factor, while in 2010 runners negotiated fresh snow for four miles in the early stages of the race. I backpack at 10,000+ feet regularly (and rather slowly) and I’d only run if a bear was chasing me, and even then I’m sure I’d make a total hash out of it and be exhausted (and dead) _very_ quickly. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/29 "2018-02-13T01:37:35Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I backpack at 10,000+ feet regularly (and rather slowly) and I’d only run if a bear was chasing me, and even then I’m sure I’d make a total hash out of it and be exhausted (and dead) _very_ quickly. The most critical piece of hiking equipment for those circumstances is a hiking partner you can outrun. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/30 "2018-02-13T01:47:16Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > The most critical piece of hiking equipment for those circumstances is a hiking partner you can outrun. Shit, I think that’s what I am _for my buddies_. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/31 "2018-02-13T02:00:01Z")
If you are at 10,000 bears are no longer a large concern, now moose…they are responsible for more attacks than grizzly bear and black bears combined. I don’t think that the gender divide makes much sense in many of the competitions. Can men’s typical size advantage really mean much in curling? In some sports the women probably have advantage if only body size is considered. Hopefully this changes within my lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/32 "2018-02-13T04:45:34Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > There are some shooting events in the summer Olympics that could go co-ed, as it were, but I predict that women would get squeezed out eventually not because of some gender disparity in strength, but a gender disparity in interest, i.e. if there are a million potential elite target shooters in the U.S. that are men, there are likely only a fraction of that number who are women because shooting is seen as more of a male pastime and girls subtly (and not so subtly) discouraged from pursuing it. The cohort with the greater number is far more likely to dominate the top spots. The equestrian events at the Olympics are completely gender-neutral. Men and women compete against each other, and the teams can be any combination of men & women. But riding horses in general is very much female dominated. And the Olympic teams repeat this, with about 75% of them being female. But consistently the men win more of the medals. Possibly due to bias by the Judges, but it holds true even in events where the result is more numerically objective, like jumping. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/33 "2018-02-13T05:44:50Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > If you are at 10,000 bears are no longer a large concern, now moose…they are responsible for more attacks than grizzly bear and black bears combined. > I don’t think that the gender divide makes much sense in many of the competitions. Can men’s typical size advantage really mean much in curling? In some sports the women probably have advantage if only body size is considered. > > Hopefully this changes within my lifetime. With all due respect, in most sports it makes obvious sense. Men have physical advantages. And if you accept that there are physical differences, it is not beyond reason to suggest that in the less obvious sports there is a mental difference that has a male advantage. I know that there’s well studied differences in pattern recognition, for example. From an evolutionary view it’s not outlandish to think men might average better at mentally judging trajectories and being able to apply that judgement. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/34 "2018-02-13T05:46:29Z")
Does seem like it would advance equality. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/35 "2018-02-13T05:57:19Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > With all due respect, in most sports it makes obvious sense. Men have physical advantages. And if you accept that there are physical differences, it is not beyond reason to suggest that in the less obvious sports there is a mental difference that has a male advantage. I know that there’s well studied differences in pattern recognition, for example. From an evolutionary view it’s not outlandish to think men might average better at mentally judging trajectories and being able to apply that judgement. Alpine Skiing Biathlon Bobsled Cross Country Curling Figure Skating Freestyle Skiing Ice Hockey Luge Nordic Combined Speed Skating Skeleton Ski Jumping Snowboarding In that list, there are several that benefit from lower weight or lower weight compared to surface area. As in a few women were only given their first ski jumping event in 2014 I think that your assumption would require qualification. Time and experience will be required to tell. As size also excludes the majority of men, who aren’t big enough to play in sports where that matters where do we have co-ed competitions that are based on weight class? In some of these like Skeleton lighter athletes are allowed to use heavier sleds to partially mitigate weight advantages, but even in the case of the Biathlon, time lost at the shooting range, is the only major difference and could be made up by training and experience. [http://www.realbiathlon.com/2013/08/who-shoots-better-men-or-women.html](http://www.realbiathlon.com/2013/08/who-shoots-better-men-or-women.html) Do you have any cites that definitively prove my ideas as false? I would think that a coaching gap could explain a lot of the difference in some of these sports. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/36 "2018-02-13T06:00:00Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > If you are at 10,000 bears are no longer a large concern, now moose…they are responsible for more attacks than grizzly bear and black bears combined. Alas, bears are a big concern above 10,000 feet, as many a hiker can tell you. One of the grizzly bear’s favorite treats is the army cutworm moth, which contain a surprising amount of fat. Grizzlies eat a LOT of those moths. They’re like the potato chips of the grizzly world. I used to live near Yellowstone Park, and stories abound of bear encounters above 10k feet. Here’s [a more authoritative source](https://www.bear.org/website/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=68:brown--grizzly-bear-facts): > [@](#): > > During the summer months in the Yellowstone area, these moths congregate on sub-alpine plants located above the timberline at elevations higher than 10,000 feet. During the early morning hours these moths drink nectar and then during the day they cluster on the surrounding rocks. Grizzlies from all around climb to these high elevations to consume 10,000 to 20,000 of these moths a day. At times like this, when food is abundant, numerous grizzlies will congregate and feed together. Once the food source is depleted, the grizzlies will go their separate ways in search of other food (Bauer and Bauer 1996, p 67). Not trying to jack the thread. I just hate to think people might assume they’re safe from bears if they reach that elevation. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/37 "2018-02-13T06:22:12Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Alpine Skiing > Biathlon > Bobsled > Cross Country > Curling > Figure Skating > Freestyle Skiing > Ice Hockey > Luge > Nordic Combined > Speed Skating > Skeleton > Ski Jumping > Snowboarding > > In that list, there are several that benefit from lower weight or lower weight compared to surface area. > > As in a few women were only given their first ski jumping event in 2014 I think that your assumption would require qualification. Time and experience will be required to tell. > > As size also excludes the majority of men, who aren’t big enough to play in sports where that matters where do we have co-ed competitions that are based on weight class? > > In some of these like Skeleton lighter athletes are allowed to use heavier sleds to partially mitigate weight advantages, but even in the case of the Biathlon, time lost at the shooting range, is the only major difference and could be made up by training and experience. > > [http://www.realbiathlon.com/2013/08/who-shoots-better-men-or-women.html](http://www.realbiathlon.com/2013/08/who-shoots-better-men-or-women.html) > > Do you have any cites that definitively prove my ideas as false? Speed skating? Is that one even close? And your own biathlon cite still mostly gives the advantage to men with it only being shakier on the shooting accuracy. Rather than “find a cite that proves your ideas false”, which I’m not even sure would entail, I’ll link a cite to what I talked about: [Are Differences Between Men and Women in Rotated Pattern Recognition Due to the Use of Different Cognitive Strategies?](https://ejop.psychopen.eu/article/view/610/html) > [@](#): > > Performance on mental rotation tasks may be influenced by gender differences in information processing. Mental rotation tasks based on comparison – where participants are asked to decide whether a pair of objects are identical or not – show consistent performance differences in favour of men. Findings from these kinds of tasks are the basis for the hypothesis that men employ a holistic, global approach to mental rotation in which they rotate the entire stimulus as a whole and then compare it to the target, whereas women employ a local, piecemeal approach in which individual features or parts are rotated and compared separately, piece by piece, to the target (e.g., Heil & Jansen-Osmann, 2008; Kail, Carter, & Pellegrino, 1979; Rilea, 2008). > > Investigations varying the number of figures that subjects need to match have provided additional data regarding the different strategies that men and women use. These studies suggest that men rely more on a match-jump strategy: for example, once men have identified the matching target, they jump to the next problem without verifying the remaining stimuli, which presumably do not match, and thus progress through the test more quickly and have a chance to respond to more questions. In contrast, women tend to match every single figure to the target, even after identifying a match, and thus do not advance through the test as quickly, and often are unable to finish tests that have a fixed time limit (e.g., Glück & Fabrizii, 2010; Hirnstein, Bayer, & Hausmann, 2009). > > In addition to a slower speed of responding, examination of the relations between self-reported confidence, performance and guessing behavior on mental rotation tasks indicates that men have a more accurate perception of their performance and were significantly more confident in their responses than women (e.g., Blough & Slavin, 1987; Cooke-Simpson & Voyer, 2007; Delgado & Prieto, 1996; Goldstein, Haldane, & Mitchell, 1990). Maybe some of that is socialization or coaching but I don’t know. But I doubt it’ll change much in your lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/38 "2018-02-13T06:35:41Z")
I can’t really understand what the OP is on about and I really don’t care. I just had to add this: I never watched or cared about any Olympics before in my life, but the Women’s Halfpipe happened to be on earlier and I began watching idly. I quickly became amazed at what they were doing: the multiple flips and twists over the side… I kept thinking, “how in the hell do they do that?” I have never watched any kind of snowboarding event before and was really, really impressed. Then a little while later, I saw the Men’s Halfpipe. Holy fuckin’ shit. The level of intricacy of the male snowboarder’s flips and tricks was astonishingly superior to the women’s. Again, I have never seen anyone snowboarding before in my life and I had no preconceived notion of what it was supposed to look like. But it was obvious that whatever kind of physicality is necessary to pull that off, the best of the women were in no way equal to the best of the men. It wasn’t merely that the men were doing more flipping and flying, it’s that they _made it look so easy_ whereas the women were visibly exerting more physical effort. I could tell those women (and they were damn good, I’m not trying to take anything away from them) really had to grind out every last bit of physical effort to muscle their way over the sides and into the spins and flips, and it showed. The men moved as if they were powered by high-performance engines. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/39 "2018-02-13T06:43:04Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Speed skating? Is that one even close? And your own biathlon cite still mostly gives the advantage to men with it only being shakier on the shooting accuracy. Rather than “find a cite that proves your ideas false”, which I’m not even sure would entail, I’ll link a cite to what I talked about: > [Are Differences Between Men and Women in Rotated Pattern Recognition Due to the Use of Different Cognitive Strategies?](https://ejop.psychopen.eu/article/view/610/html) > > Maybe some of that is socialization or coaching but I don’t know. But I doubt it’ll change much in your lifetime. Nothing in your cite proves a biological difference there, it could be based on gender norms etc… Also note: > [@](#): > > Although, these results provide a base to tackle what really differs from the spatial abilities between men and women, **they cannot yet be firmly validated because of the small sample size**. Thus, further studies with larger sample sizes are needed. Can you provide a cite that there is a biological bases for some cognitive difference that cannot be overcome by the elite examples of each gender? Sure the number of women who may be able to compete in the worlds strongest man competition may be a lower number than those who are large enough and are male, but you are claiming a fundamental difference in general, and your cite does nothing to support your claim. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/40 "2018-02-13T06:45:23Z")
**rat avatar** seems to be Labouring under the common misconception that since strength is not everything, it’s the same as saying strength is nothing. All the sports listed have fairly high strength requirements. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719.md?page=3)