# Gender Segregation and the Olympics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719 "2018-02-12T20:55:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/41 "2018-02-13T06:46:38Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Alas, bears are a big concern above 10,000 feet, as many a hiker can tell you. One of the grizzly bear’s favorite treats is the army cutworm moth, which contain a surprising amount of fat. Grizzlies eat a LOT of those moths. They’re like the potato chips of the grizzly world. I used to live near Yellowstone Park, and stories abound of bear encounters above 10k feet. Here’s [a more authoritative source](https://www.bear.org/website/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=68:brown--grizzly-bear-facts): > > Not trying to jack the thread. I just hate to think people might assume they’re safe from bears if they reach that elevation. I grew up in that area, while not claiming authority as a USFS wilderness ranger (most of my time was in the high Uintas). When bears are at that altitude food is plentiful, and are not likely to be running or riding bikes which increases chances of attack. But lets be clear, bear attacks and fatalities are rare. [https://public.tableau.com/shared/44N8SPTSH?:display\_count=yes](https://public.tableau.com/shared/44N8SPTSH?:display_count=yes) Exposure, falls and navigation errors are far higher risks, [And note the Travel in the backcountry: 1 in 232,000 person travel days](https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/injuries.htm) Or about one bear injury inside the park for every 8.6 human lifetimes of exposure inside the parks back-county. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/42 "2018-02-13T07:03:06Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Nothing in your cite proves a biological difference there, it could be based on gender norms etc… > > Also note: > > Can you provide a cite that there is a biological bases for some cognitive difference that cannot be overcome by the elite examples of each gender? > > Sure the number of women who may be able to compete in the worlds strongest man competition may be a lower number than those who are large enough and are male, but you are claiming a fundamental difference in general, and your cite does nothing to support your claim. I don’t have to prove you wrong. You said that you can’t see a good reason there was a difference in many sports, it must be caused by a Male v Female societal difference. Since there are quite obvious physical differences, and you are not claiming any expertise in sports science or male-female brain morphology , I don’t feel very compelled by your hunch. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/43 "2018-02-13T07:31:12Z")
What? I just noticed you have “ice”(??) hockey on your list. You sir, should not be speaking on this subject at all if you think there’s no obvious physical advantage to men in hockey. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/44 "2018-02-13T09:29:46Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Strength is actually a factor in both bowling and archery. In archery it affects how far one can shoot, but for olympic events distances are fixed. I don’t think that using the distance at which female archers now shoot would provide the men with an advantage. It would remove part of the pleasure for those male archers who love explaining to the ladies that “we shoot further” (I know, it was explained on the first day and I’ve got eyes, I can see your butts are further). But there definitely is a social difference (which like all social things varies by location): the first day of my intro course involved a lot of men very-carefully not looking in our direction and the only one who said something before lunch was an imbecile; both in clubs and in the few events I’ve attended I always see more male than female archers. The recent spate of archery movies has done a lot to change that but we’re talking about going from often-zero to a visible minority. So long as the pools are so biased, I’d at least like to have the option of having both ungendered and gendered events. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/45 "2018-02-13T13:25:27Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What? I just noticed you have “ice”(??) hockey on your list. You sir, should not be speaking on this subject at all if you think there’s no obvious physical advantage to men in hockey. That was a listing of all of the events I could think of in the Winter Olympics, not that all would be equal, but that many could be very close. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/46 "2018-02-13T13:26:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Does anyone think it’s a bit archaic / old-fashioned / oppressive / untoward to still maintain separate gendered events (e.g. men’s and women’s snowboarding / alpine skiing / hockey) in the Olympics? I watched a bit of mixed curling early on in the Olympics, and it seemed refreshingly inclusive. Any chance we see a “mixed snowboard halfpipe” event in 2022/2026/2030? No, there isn’t. The reason there’s separate women’s events is because in 99% of events, they wouldn’t even be able to make the Olympics. Or, if you mandated a number of women had to be in the event, they would always lose by a ridiculous margin. I have to assume\*\* rat avatar\*\* is kidding around when, for instance, he cites “ice hockey” as a sport women could compete with me in. I love women’s hockey but if you asked women to compete with men the skater, at least, would at best have a 50-50 shot of even making it to the end of the game. I have endless respect for women athletes. They do amazing things. They cannot compete with men; it’s just not a fair contest. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/47 "2018-02-13T13:30:08Z")
Not a winter sport, but I wonder if croquet is a gender-equal sport? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/48 "2018-02-13T13:35:44Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I don’t have to prove you wrong. You said that you can’t see a good reason there was a difference in many sports, it must be caused by a Male v Female societal difference. Since there are quite obvious physical differences, and you are not claiming any expertise in sports science or male-female brain morphology , I don’t feel very compelled by your hunch. You were claiming cognitive differences based on sex, I cannot prove the negative there, you have to show biological evidence for this extraordinary claim. I am betting you are no Brittney Griner yourself, I know I couldn’t compete with her. To presuppose some pseudoscientific biological traits when the reasons may be more social than physical does nothing to justify keeping this divide in the long term. ---
**Author:** ![Bic\_D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Bic\_D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bic_D)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/49 "2018-02-13T14:16:36Z")
I remember back in the day, 03 I believe, Annika Sorenstam played in a men’s golf tournament, The Colonial Open. She had already won 42 LPGA career titles and was considered too good to play with women. The Colonial course is/was the shortest on tour registering about 350 yds longer than LPGA courses. I thought it would be a great test because…yes, technically she is competing score wise with men but ultimately she is playing against the course and the course doesn’t know if you are a man or woman. She had a good first round but in the end, she didn’t make the cut. She was literally the best female golfer in the WORLD and didn’t make the cut in a tournament where many big name players didn’t even play and many amateurs made the cut. I’ve never really played darts but a sport that comes to mind where women could, if they are not already, compete with men is pool/billiards. It literally takes no strength and requires finesse. Allison Fisher comes to mind as someone who can hang and most likely hold her own in the sport of billiards including snooker. ---
**Author:** ![NorthernStar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c77e96/32.png) [@NorthernStar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NorthernStar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/50 "2018-02-13T14:17:58Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > In some of these like Skeleton lighter athletes are allowed to use heavier sleds to partially mitigate weight advantages, but even in the case of the Biathlon, time lost at the shooting range, is the only major difference and could be made up by training and experience. 1. Nobody wants to use a heavier sled in skeleton. That would be a major handicap in the start, which is very important - a quick rule of thumb is, all other elements (sled and runner quality, steering/driving skill, weight) being equal, a 0.1s start time difference results in 0.2s to 0.3s difference in finish time. 2. While the difference in shooting accuracy between top female and top male biathletes may be small, biathlon also includes a lot of skiing. As it happens, most of the typical biathlon race distances are used in both women’s and men’s races on virtually identical courses. There may be some differences in race format and penalty system (for instance, women receive a one minute time penalty for a miss in the 15 km race, while the men ski penalty laps), but nowadays all major biathlon races provide a [very detailed statistics breakdown](https://biathlonresults.com/), including “pure skiing” and “pure shooting” times for each participant. Using that data, noticeable differences between the skiing performances of each gender are plainly visible. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/51 "2018-02-13T15:05:41Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’ve heard it said that this actually favors women. The prize money is the same, but since the women play less it works out that they’re making more money per hour, or per game than the men. I think women are also more likely to participate in singles and doubles because the singles is less taxing. Calculating the amount athletes are paid per hour by looking at the number of hours of actual competition is misleading. The vast majority of the required hours that athletes put in is in the training and practice, which would presumably be the same for men and women. What does make sense is to compare what the prize money is compared to the revenue that the performances bring in. I have no idea how these compare for men’s and women’s tennis. (My recollection is that male tennis players were commonly paid more than female until people raised equality concerns and pressured the sponsors to change that.) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/52 "2018-02-13T15:18:59Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You were claiming cognitive differences based on sex, I cannot prove the negative there, you have to show biological evidence for this extraordinary claim. > > I am betting you are no Brittney Griner yourself, I know I couldn’t compete with her. > > To presuppose some pseudoscientific biological traits when the reasons may be more social than physical does nothing to justify keeping this divide in the long term. I really don’t see why you couldn’t google this yourself, but ok: [Yes, there is a female and a male brain: Morphology versus functionality](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4833230/#!po=31.8182) > [@](#): > > Whenever the terms “female brain” and “male brain” are used, the intention should be functional and not morphological, qualitative and not quantitative. Functionally, brains of women and men are indeed different. Not better, not worse, neither more nor less sophisticated, just different. The very brain cells differ chromosomally. The male brain is exposed to a completely different hormonal environment during intrauterine life than the female brain. The available scientific data as to the crucial effect of testosterone on the developing male brain is overwhelming (3, 4). > > Our gonads function differently because of differences in the hypothalamus, pituitary, and gonad axis. These brain regions look morphologically exactly the same; the hormones secreted are exactly the same, just the patterns of secretion are different—pulsatile in the female and almost constant in the male—which leads to fundamentally different gonadal function. The future effects of highly elevated testosterone in the male fetus are numerous, including behavioral characteristics, toy preferences, verbality (5), and many other features. Of course, this is not categorical and overlaps are common. Consider the heart, which is morphologically indistinguishable between the sexes; however, more women than men who suffer from a heart attack will have open coronary arteries and atypical symptoms. Consider drugs: prophylactic aspirin taken by women will more often prevent strokes, and if taken by men will more often prevent a heart attack. Consider the gastrointestinal system: passage time of food and drugs will more often be longer in women than in men, with consequences for drug absorption and food digestion. Most functional differences of our bodily systems are controlled by our functionally different brains, and yes, there is a female and a male brain. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/53 "2018-02-13T15:37:57Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I really don’t see why you couldn’t google this yourself, but ok: > [Yes, there is a female and a male brain: Morphology versus functionality](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4833230/#!po=31.8182) Did you not read the reply on your own cite? > **[Reply to Glezerman: Why differences between brains of females and brains of...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4833225/)** > [@](#): > > Glezerman overlooks, however, the fact that such differences may be different and even opposite under different environmental conditions. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/54 "2018-02-13T15:45:53Z")
That is not “my own cite”, it’s a reply to the article by the people he dissed over their MRI study. I am pretty sure you won’t accept any cite so I think it’s not worth further effort. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/55 "2018-02-13T15:59:14Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That is not “my own cite”, it’s a reply to the article by the people he dissed over their MRI study. I am pretty sure you won’t accept any cite so I think it’s not worth further effort. No, I would accept one that shows that there are two distinct populations based on biological traits that limit the elites from either side from being equally competitive. As you were the one claiming a unique male cognitive advantage, which is an extraordinary claim, the burden of proof is on you who made that claim. Demonstrate a near universal deficiency in brain function based on the XX chromosome and I will concede, but as these athletes are all exceptional examples minor differences in a population do not apply. As an example, there is evidence that differentiation in upper body strength may have implications for some specific sports, but the near universal segregation in these events is not justified by that specific difference. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/56 "2018-02-13T16:04:18Z")
And why, precisely, is it an extraordinary claim? Men and women have well noted differences, you might have even noticed a few yourself. But the fact that they think exactly alike is the obvious and ordinary claim? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/57 "2018-02-13T16:10:22Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > And why, precisely, is it an extraordinary claim? Men and women have well noted differences, you might have even noticed a few yourself. But the fact that they think exactly alike is the obvious and ordinary claim? Thus the reason for science, or the systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses. A set of tools to work around typical human cognitive bias. Confirmation bias or the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one’s existing beliefs or theories is a human failing. Your claim is a systematic error of inductive reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/58 "2018-02-13T16:23:03Z")
You are on a SJW soapbox masquerading as a science pulpit. I never came to any conclusion – I said it’s not unreasonable to think there may be cognitive differences at play. I then showed an article showing pattern recognition differences, not good enough I have to show biological difference. I post an article discussing biological differences, not good enough because another researcher disagreed. I think I have shown that cognitive differences is not an extraordinary claim even if I can’t be sure it affects sports performance. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/59 "2018-02-13T16:48:44Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You were claiming cognitive differences based on sex, I cannot prove the negative there, you have to show biological evidence for this extraordinary claim. > > I am betting you are no Brittney Griner yourself, I know I couldn’t compete with her. > > To presuppose some pseudoscientific biological traits when the reasons may be more social than physical does nothing to justify keeping this divide in the long term. The brain is a physical organ governed by natural laws. You think evolution doesn’t impact the brain? Eliminate all gender categories for sports and other contests and we could see a proper sorting. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/60 "2018-02-13T16:54:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The brain is a physical organ governed by natural laws. You think evolution doesn’t impact the brain? Eliminate all gender categories for sports and other contests and we could see a proper sorting. Strawman, or clarify how evolution even comes into play here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719.md?page=4)